We Need to Start Expecting Mid-Level Sprouts to Play Better

[Illmaeran]

Did you mean EW? I almost didn't lose my sprout on my alt when I ran from HW to EW because of the /playtime requirement.

Another alt is right at the point in the MSQ to step into Stormblood @ ~155 hours. Another is right before Thornmarch at ~107 hours.

Regardless I think by the time a player has completed HW they should lose their sprout.

My alt still has her sprout at level 90, with 600 hours under her belt, and having just started 5.2 content. Based on my personal experience, I think people should keep their sprouts until they've finished the MSQ for the current expansion (4.0, 5.0, 6.0, but not the minor .X patches). This will let people know they haven't used their whole skill kit and to anticipate a hiccup or two. I'll tell you right now that she's hardly seen content past HW in roulettes for a loooong time so the only time I've had to use my whole skill kit is when I'm unsynch farming something.

[Ilisidi]

You'll lose your sprout when you start Endwalker.

[gotaname1]

You'll lose your sprout when you start Endwalker.

i got an alt with story skip up to endwalker. After finishing the endwalker MSQ it still has a sprout.

[Ilisidi]

There are two criteria to lose sprout state
a) 300 hours game time
b) start Endwalker.
The longer criteria is what counts.

Your alt isn't 300 hours old and Illmaeran's alt hasn't reached Endwalker yet.

[EnigmaticDodo]

I think they need to hurry up with making the whole game 'duty support'-able. People who do not want to perform at a level expected of you (if you're literally max level and can't big pull, uhh....), you can just go there.

People who are for making the game 'check you' at certain points and require some modicum of skill are never going to get their way. Someone said it earlier; this is intended play. It's why they introduced Very Easy. It's why the game doesn't challenge you at all whatsoever and you can still get through it. It's why the game keeps losing abilities. It's why etc etc etc.

This is anti-game design in a traditional sense*, and, it's like others have been saying, is to just keep the lowest common denominator subbed and keep them happy.



* to me, games are supposed to introduce concepts one by one as the game goes on, combine them, and increase complexity of mechanics. This applies to your abilities and the enemies abilities. This game doesn't do any of that. You're essentially doing the same 1,2,3 BS you were doing at level 10 or so, only instead of being called 'Dull 1,2,3' it's been UpGraDeD to 'Flashy 1,2,3' with no changes other than appearance. This game kind of sucks, but I'll keep playing for the story.

[Xaphire]

I think they need to hurry up with making the whole game 'duty support'-able. People who do not want to perform at a level expected of you (if you're literally max level and can't big pull, uhh....), you can just go there.

As much as I'd like to agree with this, the issue is that people that can't or don't want to learn to pull their weight don't use trusts/duty support. It's the biggest reason why the second trial in Endwalker is like pulling teeth so often in Duty Finder.

[Ilisidi]

As much as I'd like to agree with this, the issue is that people that can't or don't want to learn to pull their weight don't use trusts/duty support. It's the biggest reason why the second trial in Endwalker is like pulling teeth so often in Duty Finder.

Yeah, duty support requires you to actually pull your weight and take responsibility for yourself. If for whatever reason you aren't doing that you need the superior carrying power of real players. And the demands duty support puts on you are such that if you follow the MSQ you'll have been given all means to pass with duty support, might take more than one or two tries if you're shaky on mechanics or on a new job, but then you just respawn and do better next time. With real players you lose some opportunities to learn from your mistakes.
And since they are usually slower it also means you have more time to see the mechanics and remember them, instead occasionally not even noticing that there was a mechanic when running with real players.

[george357]

been playing sence arr/2.0 and learning my way to being a better player and now after 4 expansions i feel i am a good player and will help anyone who asks me on how to be a better player.

[SweetPete]

I’ve literally ran into maybe 1-2 tanks in my many years of playing this game who didn’t use any cooldowns on trash mobs or boss fights. So I count that as a win in my case.

I’ve had more tanks who just blows all their cooldowns on the first set of mobs and I’m like noooooooo. Because I know I’m gonna have to babysit heal them on the next set and won’t be able to dps much if at all.

I’m a healer main but yeah that’s been my track record with tanks.

[LeonKeyh]

My alt still has her sprout at level 90, with 600 hours under her belt [...] Based on my personal experience, I think people should keep their sprouts until they've finished the MSQ for the current expansion (4.0, 5.0, 6.0, but not the minor .X patches). [...]

I think where it is is perfect. As a new player who started in 5.2, whenever I got to Shadowbringers and my sprout icon went away I was terrified. I was hoping to ride out "I'm just a silly little sprout" a little while longer. But, honestly? It was perfect timing in my overall journey and actually kicked me in the butt a little bit. 3XX hours and the base game plus 3 expansions should be enough to grasp the general idea of the game. The fact that it doesn't to some people is (as I said prior in the thread) ultimately a failure in the game design. The game should be doing a better job at helping people through.

I think they need to hurry up with making the whole game 'duty support'-able. People who do not want to perform at a level expected of you (if you're literally max level and can't big pull, uhh....), you can just go there.[...]


* to me, games are supposed to introduce concepts one by one as the game goes on, combine them, and increase complexity of mechanics. [...]

As others have mentioned, I've seen plenty of.... "not great" players in NN asking for people to run them through dungeons because they can't beat it with Duty support. Now, I think adding Duty support might end up letting people realize "Oh wow, I'm not playing as well as I should be." but I also feel like the game really fosters the idea of "If you're having problems, just switch it to very easy or get people to carry you." So, it definitely won't help everywhere/everyone but it's a GREAT start because it pushes responsibility to those players.

As for introducing the concepts one by one, I feel like a huge reason why it doesn't feel "natural" is because of the job reworks. It feels like instead of building up a job to max level, they start at max level and tear it down. Which isn't entirely a horrible idea, but some jobs are fairly obvious that is being done (especially jobs that are new for the expansion). Right now, you can definitely tell when a lot of the jobs were most recently reworked. A lot of which are "complete" at level 80 and the further you move down, the less complete they feel, then you generally have something simple tacked on between 80-90. The exceptions there are the jobs that came from this expansion which feel "complete" at 90 with nothing really tacked on, or SMN which got their rework in this expansion and just...well... always feels incomplete really...