We Need to Start Expecting Mid-Level Sprouts to Play Better

[Supersnow845]

Well since you're not a healer main, I will give you a piece of advice. This happens. Sometimes we are going to have to do this. I have times I rarely touch anything but my dps abilities and times I am healing constantly. The majority is somewhere in the middle. Either of the other two are outliers. Your original post said this wasn't an isolated incident. All I can say is my experience is the opposite. The outliers are isolated. They happen here and there. We adjust and we most likely never see those people in roulette again. And I'm not sure if you're accurately gauging what is and isn't fair effort on our part. You can speak to the tank side. I will tell you that sometimes we have to step up and do more than the bare minimum because our team is depending on us. If that's not something you can do without feeling resentful, then maybe the healer role isn't for you.

Doing the tanks job for them isn’t being a resentful healer, it’s expecting the minimum competency from another player, you know exactly what this thread is about

[TaleraRistain]

Doing the tanks job for them isn’t being a resentful healer, it’s expecting the minimum competency from another player, you know exactly what this thread is about

I also know it's being blown way out of proportion and if the OP is experiencing this in every run, then maybe they should look at the common denominator and determine if there is something lacking in their own play. This is not some epidemic in the game. It's an occasional enough thing to the extreme the OP is talking about that it's a complete non-issue and not worth getting worked up about.

[SamSmoot]

One thing I've done is to make open suggestions without targeting anyone.
In one dungeon, players would get a red tether from the boss that had to be removed by running to a post on the perimeter. If you didn't do this, you died.
One player kept failing at this, until I suggested the proper action (without naming anyone), and the failing player got it and survived next time.

This might be difficult with the tank not using mitigation though, but I have no awareness of what abilities other players are using, so I can't comment on them.

[TheMightyMollusk]

I'm fairly tolerant up until the Vault. By that point I expect people to know what they're doing. And I give until then because a lot of the lower dungeons are kinda janky and job kits are weird and incomplete at low levels.

After that point, I'll try to be helpful. Sometimes people really just don't know or made a mistake, and I've found most people are reasonably receptive to advice as long as you're not a dick about it. But if people start getting pissy about it or give me that classic "you don't pay my sub" style of nonsense, I just drop from the party without further comment. You can't teach someone who refuses to learn and my blood pressure is high enough already.

[Liam_Harper]

I'm of the opinion that if someone is trying or genuinely wants to learn, I'm happy to teach and any number of mistakes or silly slip ups are fine.

But if they ignore friendly advice with "shut up, you don't pay my sub" they deserve a boot from the instance because they don't the groups sub either, so why should we carry them?

[Misplaced_Marbles]

You're mistake is assuming they don't know what they're doing. Trust me, they know exactly what they're doing and you're just expected to pick up the slack for them. Whether they're doing it to incite a reaction or because of sheer laziness is the only thing that's up for debate.

Anyway, enjoy the multiplayer experience! It is what it is.

[Renalt]

I wonder if this is the same tank I had for the same dungeon that wouldn't put his tank stance on. I was a healer for that dungeon and got pulled in cause I guess the last healer quit the team when they were at the final boss. I thought "Sweet! I got a quick roulette"

I WAS WRONG

I noticed something was wrong but not immediately when I straight up died within a minute. I don't remember raidwides on that boss taking 80% of my health... ( I find out later it's cause a raid wide followed by an auto attack just hammering me )

Anyway I chalked it up that I did something wrong and apologized.

So round two...I'm dying...again. Then I noticed it...Tank has no stance and I am top aggro.

So now I'm extra healing to stay alive while trying to let the tank know stance was off.

die again...vote to abandon happens. I say no because I let the tank know so if they switch it on...we fine. Nah. Vote passes and we are all kicked...at the last boss.

[Jeeqbit]

tank wasn’t using mitigation abilities on any of the dungeon mobs and was using them on the dungeon bosses.

Common mistake. Most dungeon tanks are new or casual tanks that don't main the role, so there has always been a prevalent belief that mitigation should be used on bosses. I had always found it more effective on trash, but I tested it one time in Sastasha and dungeon bosses did the same auto-attack damage as 2 trash enemies. If you have fought 2 trash enemies before they are nothing and the healer probably isn't even needed.

the amount of people who have no idea what they are doing in high level dungeons or trials is completely unacceptable.

It's completely acceptable because it's story content and they are just trying to enjoy the story or level an alt. If they were trying to be good they would be doing content that requires you to be good such as extreme, savage or ultimate.

This needs to stop. We need to stop telling sprouts in mid-level content that poor play is ‘good enough’ as long as they clear.

It is good enough. SE designed it to be good enough intentionally. They wanted to design a game where bad players would be obvious but where good players could shine and carry them. Their design was a success. This was explained in the noclip documentary (not with these exact words, but with words of the same effect).

Being expected to do anything, or to be good, comes across demanding, toxic and rude and that's what drove new players away from WoW for most of it's existence. SE understands this is rude so it can be reported.

[AwesomeJr44]

You're mistake is assuming they don't know what they're doing. Trust me, they know exactly what they're doing and you're just expected to pick up the slack for them. Whether they're doing it to incite a reaction or because of sheer laziness is the only thing that's up for debate.

Anyway, enjoy the multiplayer experience! It is what it is.

True. There are lots of people who just do not try and expect others to carry them, and it's not ok. I think it's mostly the latter group, where they are just lazy and wanting others to get them free EXP or tomes, but there is definitely a group of people who just troll.

Common mistake. Most dungeon tanks are new or casual tanks that don't main the role, so there has always been a prevalent belief that mitigation should be used on bosses. I had always found it more effective on trash, but I tested it one time in Sastasha and dungeon bosses did the same auto-attack damage as 2 trash enemies. If you have fought 2 trash enemies before they are nothing and the healer probably isn't even needed.

I don't consider being in the level 87 dungeon to be 'new'. And if you skipped, I don't care, you need to play at the skill level you should be at, or you need practice in lower level dungeons. If you buy a story skip and a level skip and assume you'll have enough knowledge to just jump into Tower of Zot as soon as you unlock it, without any practice, you are kidding yourself and you are doing nothing but trolling whichever poor souls you get matched with. It is not hard to learn jobs in this game to an acceptable level outside of Black Mage. (which is only still complex and hard because Yoshi P plays it lol) Go play a level 60 dungeon once you've read your tooltips. When you are comfortable, go do a level 70 dungeon. Then go to an 80 dungeon. Then go do Zot or whatever 80+ dungeon you're looking to do. If you do not have the game knowledge to use even one mitigation on mobs by the time you reach Ktisis, it's because you did not put in the effort to learn it earlier. There is no excuse for having the same knowledge as a level 30 tank when you're in Kitisis.

It's completely acceptable because it's story content and they are just trying to enjoy the story or level an alt. If they were trying to be good they would be doing content that requires you to be good such as extreme, savage or ultimate.

No. Just no. 'It's story content' is a stupid excuse. You're not a level 30 tank anymore. You should not be playing like one in a level 87 dungeon. And I'm not looking for Extreme level gameplay. I just want people to play at a skill level where they are doing their fair share. The tank should be mitigating. The healer should be doing healing and damage when they can. The DPS should be AOE'ing when there are more than 2 enemies. If they are not, they are bad at the game and need to improve. Don't use Extreme or Savage as an excuse. There needs to be standards in story content. Not super high standards, but there is currently no standard whatsoever. If you play a single player Final Fantasy game, and you do not have the skill to beat a boss, you do not get a skip so that you can experience the story. You are told to go improve your strategies or skills. Then you can beat the boss and progress. The only difference is that in this game you can be lazy and get carried by other people. That is not ok to ask of randoms you meet in Duty Finder. Using your standard, if we ever meet in a duty, I'll be sure to not be heal, mitigating or AOE and just let you carry me. After all, it's just story content so why should I be bothered to care about putting in my fair share?

It is good enough. SE designed it to be good enough intentionally. They wanted to design a game where bad players would be obvious but where good players could shine and carry them. Their design was a success.

Despite you saying the contrary, this is not good design. The only reason it works is because you are punished for deciding not to carry people. If I decide that I want my team to get off my back and start putting in their fair share, I'm the bad guy according to this system. All this does is breed animosity between the two groups. The hyper casuals hate being told to actually do something, and the people putting in effort are just told to suck it up and carry them because apparently we're just unpaid labor now. We're supposed to be a team. But this is the equivalent of a four student group where one kid runs off and does whatever while the other three actually works on the project and gets them all an A. Just because the game is functional like this, doesn't mean it's even close to ideal. I am being forced to play the game for you or I don't get to play for 30m.

Bad players should be encouraged to become better. This makes it so that the veterans can help the sprouts become better at the game, and then in turn, they can teach the next generation of sprouts. This is the ideal. You want people to improve. You want people to get better at the game and go into Extreme or Savage. But with the current system, all we are encouraging is standing on the shoulders of giants and claiming you're tall.

Being expected to do anything, or to be good, comes across demanding, toxic and rude and that's what drove new players away from WoW for most of it's existence. SE understands this is rude so it can be reported.

I don't care. I literally could not care less if you think its toxic. You are wrong. It is not toxic and if you think it is, you are misinterpreting what people are saying and the only person responsible for that is you. I can only control what I say, not how you take it. If I tell you the truth and you do not like the truth, that is your issue. Yes, having a super elitist community is bad. That's why you need to foster a community that encourages getting better and helping people that need it. We have the opposite problem. Instead of calling people bad for being bad which at least causes some people to get better to prove them wrong, we are encouraging them to stay bad because its apparently good to be bad at the game. I do not care what you say, you will never convince me that intentionally not learning the game so you can get carried is a good thing to have in any video game. If you don't want to hear that you are bad without putting in the work to not be bad, you need to play a game like Candy Crush. In that game you don't have to worry about being dead weight for someone else to carry.

[Jeeqbit]

I don't consider being in the level 87 dungeon to be 'new'.

Your problem. You can be in the 87 dungeon and still be new enough to not know how to tank properly. Learning to tank well is something that takes people years.

The guides and videos that exist now are great. They didn't really exist when I started. But they probably still don't make most people great tanks over night.

No. Just no. 'It's story content' is a stupid excuse.

How is it a stupid excuse? Many people login to the game to do the story. Then they logout until the next story patch. Why should they expect you to be rude to them for being a casual player that doesn't remember how to play properly?

Despite you saying the contrary, this is not good design.

I said that it was good enough, not that it was a good design. I said that it was an intentional design and that it was a successful design. Whether it is a good design is up for debate and is going to depend on opinion.

I don't care. I literally could not care less if you think its toxic. You are wrong.

If I'm wrong, then why does it drive people away from WoW and why does SE punish people for it? It's because it's rude and being rude to another human being is unacceptable.