Ardbert's Party vs the Scions Analysis

[aveyond-dreams]

So Cid jumping off an airship hovering above a mountain top that grew a hole to technically the middle of the planet. Blowing himself up and somehow surviving the rest of the falls and explosion. Or Yang who not only survived a ship wreck but also an explosion at the top of a giant tower. Later getting whacked with a frying pan while already unconscious don't demand more of a suspension of disbelief than things that have happened in XIV? Or that Palom and Parom's Elder somehow found something to cure them of having petrified themselves? Or that in order to actually do damage to the final boss one has to throw a spoon at them?

Ultama Thule we knew even before going there that we were carrying a maguffin. Even told to use it if we needed to. Only to later get told to not use it because it wasn't safe yet to do so.

Allow me to further clarify my post. It is easier to suspend one's disbelief in FFIV given the handling of the characters' (apparent) demises because they were not undone with the same sort of haste that happens in FFXIV. The focus here is on how impactful these events were given the fact that they appeared permanent. This is not occurring in FFXIV.

Relying on maguffins and gizmos at this stage of the story is not the sort of quality writing I expect. More care and attention to be given to strong characterization and meaningful choices instead.

[CrownySuccubus]

I dunno. The fact that they "appeared permanent" actually tends to make them more of a fakeout. As much as I hated the constant "Oh boo! 'X Scion' sacrificed themselves!" in Ultima Thule, it actually was pretty ridiculous when Cid, Yang, Palom and Porom just turn out to be fine later down the line.

And there's nothing wrong with "MacGuffins" when they're foreshadowed. And in this case, it was more like a Chekhov's Gun; you knew it was going to come into play somehow, but you were just waiting for when the game decided to pull the trigger.

[aveyond-dreams]

And the game's finale had a controversial reception because of its use.

[CrownySuccubus]

And the game's finale had a controversial reception because of its use.

That's a reach. Most of game's controversy had nothing to do with the Chekhov's Gun. The problem with the fake-out deaths is that they shouldn't have even been dramatic in the first place. If the Scions said, "Don't worry, we're going to take one for the team for now, but use Azem's magic when it's safe", there would have been no problem.

The problem was that they kept trying to tease that it would be permanent, which wouldn't have been an issue if they just didn't dramatize it.

[Iscah]

The problem with the fake-out deaths is that they shouldn't have even been dramatic in the first place. If the Scions said, "Don't worry, we're going to take one for the team for now, but use Azem's magic when it's safe", there would have been no problem.

The problem was that they kept trying to tease that it would be permanent, which wouldn't have been an issue if they just didn't dramatize it.

On the one hand, yes it was clear to the audience that these sacrifices could not be permanent. They were too abrupt, too many, the key to bringing them back was already presented to us. Narratively we can anticipate it.

At the same time, from the characters' perspective, their deaths absolutely could be permanent. They are putting their lives in a precarious position that relies on the WoL succeeding and reaching a not-yet-clear point where the others can be revived. If that doesn't work out, then this really could be their last farewell, even as they place their hope in your success.

So for me at least, even though I trusted from the start that this was an "everyone sacrifices and then revives" plot (if you look up the "first impressions of EW" thread I think I commented on it at the time), appreciating the characters' feelings is also a very big part of it. I knew it probably had to end with the revival, but still that middle part was sad and beautiful, imagining – and seeing in the dialogue – how heavy each sacrifice must weigh on the survivors as they press onwards, uncertain of their destination and how much more will be asked of them before they can reach it.

So no, I don't think it would have been better for the plot for it to be played lightly.

I think some fake-out deaths in other parts of the story were overplayed before being casually reversed, but not this time.

[CrownySuccubus]

On the one hand, yes it was clear to the audience that these sacrifices could not be permanent. They were too abrupt, too many, the key to bringing them back was already presented to us. Narratively we can anticipate it.

At the same time, from the characters' perspective, their deaths absolutely could be permanent. They are putting their lives in a precarious position that relies on the WoL succeeding and reaching a not-yet-clear point where the others can be revived. If that doesn't work out, then this really could be their last farewell, even as they place their hope in your success.

So for me at least, even though I trusted from the start that this was an "everyone sacrifices and then revives" plot (if you look up the "first impressions of EW" thread I think I commented on it at the time), appreciating the characters' feelings is also a very big part of it. I knew it probably had to end with the revival, but still that middle part was sad and beautiful, imagining – and seeing in the dialogue – how heavy each sacrifice must weigh on the survivors as they press onwards, uncertain of their destination and how much more will be asked of them before they can reach it.

So no, I don't think it would have been better for the plot for it to be played lightly.

I think some fake-out deaths in other parts of the story were overplayed before being casually reversed, but not this time.

Agree to disagree, then. Sure, from the POV's perspective, their "deaths" could have been permanent despite the means of their revival being on hand, but that doesn't really change anything from a narrative standpoint. It reminds me of Dragon Ball Z, which kept trying to reintroduce the possibility of permanent death for the main cast, despite the fact that almost every single arc introduced a new means of resurrection, whether it was by Earth Dragon Balls, Namek Dragon Balls, or gods just deciding "Okay, you're not dead anymore". It doesn't matter if the characters are aware that they might not come back -- there's no tension for the audience.

[EaraGrace]

It's worth noting that FFIV was released before some of us were even born. Personally I'm inclined to look to the more 'recent' entries in the franchise. Besides, I'm not sure how the existence of FFIV negates the many other Final Fantasy titles with dire consequences for the world as a whole and the members of the main cast.

Spoilers for Ff15 - 10:

15 had major character deaths but is arguably the best example of killing characters too soon, 13 and it’s sequels are messy and repeatedly undermine their own emotional moments, 12 has the entire cast show up alive at the end (including several fake out deaths) and 10 did have some great character death moments that were undone almost immediately afterward.

Though I imagine, as always, those who consider the Scions to be their comfort characters will insist on shielding them from any and all meaningful stakes whilst being perfectly fine with everything else in the setting being tormented and eliminated in their stead.

Strawman.

Edit: I should expand on this. One doesn’t need to think that the Scions should be shielded from “any and all meaningful stakes” to think that their status doesn’t undermine the games themes and writing.

FFIV is the game where a father sacrificed his life in the name of revenge in casting Meteor. FFIV is where the main character was directly responsible for the death of another main character's parent. FFIV also did not annul the sacrifices made by the main cast members in as little time as this game did, with some only being able to be brought back into action in the penultimate moments of the game. It did not demand nearly as much in the way of suspension of disbelief as Endwalker did, with some characters like Rydia only making an appearance in a shocking manner aged up to adulthood in the middle of a battle that was practically lost after her fate was left unknown. Unless one has prior knowledge of the game, it is much harder to predict the fates of these characters or if/when they will return.

Spoilers for FFIV:

1. Tellah has an incredibly limited role that amounts to jumping in and out of the party while yelling to everyone how he’ll kill the villain or die trying.
2. The death was accidental, almost immediately forgiven and never mentioned again. You could remove it and it would change nothing.
3. I think listing the characters in IV with a death fake out would be helpful. Edward, Yang, Palom and Poroms, Cid, Rydia. That leaves Cecil, the main character, Rosa, who is kidnapped or poisoned and left incapacitated for large sections of the game, Tellah, who appears and disappears multiple times, and Edge/Fusoya, who only appear at the the end. IV was a lot. By the time you get half way, for pretty much every death you expect them to return.
4. Several of these deaths are undone immediately. You find Cid in the Dwarven Kingdom shortly after his sacrifice and you find Edward right after leaving Mysidia.

[Alleo]

On the one hand, yes it was clear to the audience that these sacrifices could not be permanent. They were too abrupt, too many, the key to bringing them back was already presented to us. Narratively we can anticipate it.

At the same time, from the characters' perspective, their deaths absolutely could be permanent. They are putting their lives in a precarious position that relies on the WoL succeeding and reaching a not-yet-clear point where the others can be revived. If that doesn't work out, then this really could be their last farewell, even as they place their hope in your success.

I think this is something that players like to forget. Yes for us it was pretty clear that they wont just kill of the whole team. (Even more when you knew that another dungeon was going to happen where we would need at least three others for that)

But for these characters it was not. They bascially did that to save the world while not knowing if they will ever be back. We know from Thancred that it was not easy holding onto his own self. They also had to count on us going on and finding a way forward while also believing that we cant use our crystal to call them back because it was them giving Ultima Thule form. They got lucky that Emet and Hythlo were able to summon that field of flowers (which they were only able to do because we understood its importance towards Meteion), thus showing her that despair was not absolute in this place.

Its the same with killed characters. I just shake my head when someone mentions how characters should be over it because it has been x years for us...forgetting that we are again an outsider looking into that universe. And that grief is not something everyone can get over fast. Especially if the character feels like they are the reason why the other person died. For me it makes the story way more realistic to have the character not forget the people that they lost. And that everyone feels it in their own way.

But I guess according to some here Endwalker is a story for children and teenagers because adults can only enjoy it when the game murders most of the main casts...all the other horrible events that were happening are childsplay because they are just about NPCs...Yet I saw enough streamers that had kids be absolutely destroyed by the Matsya and baby scenes because they understood the horrors behind that. Because they could imagine their kids being in that situation.

There were many such situations happening in this expansion. But seemingly they dont count when its not the main cast...

[hydralus]

I was so excited that the scions finally disbanded and it sounded like we'd finally get some adventures with new characters who don't just send us out on errands for their whims. Y'know make actual adventuring friends like Ardbert did with his adventuring crew. But nope they couldn't even last a single patch lmao

[SannaR]

I was so excited that the scions finally disbanded and it sounded like we'd finally get some adventures with new characters who don't just send us out on errands for their whims. Y'know make actual adventuring friends like Ardbert did with his adventuring crew. But nope they couldn't even last a single patch lmao

And how would you want that to happen? If you were to work with what we were given but switch the Estinien buys the map and we don't go and collect the other bit? Or would you throw everything in the trash and not even have the Tataru sending us to Raz-at-Han to gather information on an interesting story? Also don't say at a random bar as I'm fairly certain that the last time the WoL went to a bar where we weren't searching for a friend or the person we were meeting at one wasn't already there was when we got handed a drugged mug of ale. Remember the Wol also has just started to re-trust eating and drinking food. I'm so glad we didn't eat what Fandaniel placed before us. Not that I think Zenos would drug us or that Fandaniel would risk drugging Zenos. I do however wouldn't put it past Fandaniel drugging us and going oppsie idk how that happened.