Ardbert's Party vs the Scions Analysis

[aveyond-dreams]

To address the OP looks like you didn't read Alisaie's HW tales from story where just like Renda-Rae has to watch helplessly an entire caravan of people die that she was a guard for from a cliffside collapsing during one of Thanaland's rare thunderstorms. Most of the caravan being swept down with the mudslide. It's why she took up the art of the Red Mage and put her on the path to try and be as good if not better than the WoL in at least where fighting is concerned.

What a pity that unlike Estinien’s traumatic backstory, hers was never even hinted at in-game aside from the business with her grandfather. This however does not excuse her recent pivot in Endwalker that now has her constantly telling the WoL to take care of themselves. It is not an effective use for a character that isn’t really built up for that sort of thing.

Monbryda's death might have been a long time for the player, but it's still fresh for inside game time even if you feel that it's been a year or two.

This does nothing to address the fact that for a lot of us vets it did in fact happen 8 years ago and given how little time we spent with her, forgive us if we aren’t exactly all that attached to her or her relationship with Urianger. The time bubble happening in this game is a whole issue itself but I’d rather not go into it at length here.

Thancred's drinking and womanizing I think were twofold. One was they're both great ways to gain information. The other was how he was dealing with the guilt of indirectly causing Minfillia's fathers death. It's why he chose to stay away from her while she grew up and put some distance between her and him. When he started to try and close that distance the bloody banquet happened. Heck he even got possessed by Lahabreha cause he worked himself too much due to the guilt he felt. That he had to make his failure up to her. The man starts to slowly work through it starting when he punches Emmanellain after his blunder with the original peace talk interruption. Still not sure what you'd of want from him in the way of action when learning that if the source were to be destroyed that the remaining shards would also go with it.

Part of his growth during ShB isn't just learning to let Minfillia go, but to realize that Ryne is her own person. That she by the time the group chooses to go to Nabaath Areng is no longer the helpless scared young woman he rescued from the depths of Elumore and that she can take care of herself. That if things did start happening on the first and she needed help that she had a big enough support system he wouldn't really need to worry as much.

Thancred’s negative characteristics made him feel like a real and fleshed out character as opposed to one that no longer has much of a reason to be around anymore, as echoed by a significant sector of the playerbase. Reread my original post to see my explanation as to why his behaviour was inappropriate for a supposed father figure in Endwalker’s MSQ. As it stands now he is the top pick for many when it comes to what character should be retired first.

I guess Y'shtola becoming injured and being taken out for most of Stormblood doesn't count. Soon after getting her back in the post HW patches.

This is one of many examples throughout Season 1’s storyline of her sacrifices being annulled. Please re-read the OP to see why this isn’t an effective way of storytelling.

[SannaR]

What a pity that unlike Estinien’s traumatic backstory, hers was never even hinted at in-game aside from the business with her grandfather. This however does not excuse her recent pivot in Endwalker that now has her constantly telling the WoL to take care of themselves. It is not an effective use for a character that isn’t really built up for that sort of thing.

This does nothing to address the fact that for a lot of us vets it did in fact happen 8 years ago and given how little time we spent with her, forgive us if we aren’t exactly all that attached to her or her relationship with Urianger. The time bubble happening in this game is a whole issue itself but I’d rather not go into it at length here.

Thancred’s negative characteristics made him feel like a real and fleshed out character as opposed to one that no longer has much of a reason to be around anymore, as echoed by a significant sector of the playerbase. Reread my original post to see my explanation as to why his behaviour was inappropriate for a supposed father figure in Endwalker’s MSQ. As it stands now he is the top pick for many when it comes to what character should be retired first.

This is one of many examples throughout Season 1’s storyline of her sacrifices being annulled. Please re-read the OP to see why this isn’t an effective way of storytelling.

You mean just like how everyone is to take into account the side story about Zenos that's in a separate book that's not yet been published in other languages in order to fully understand him? As Iscah and myself have said its not about how her death affected you as a player but those within the story. You and others might not have grown attached to her for the short time we knew her. But others like myself did and it didn't even take that scene in Labyrinthos to be reminded of how much she meant to others. Just doing a few side quests that hint at her as that nice Roegaden lady who used to play with the children.

You can be angry about something and not explode into a rage at some cute little bunnies that don't deserve it. Let alone wouldn't and couldn't understand as to why he or anyone would care about the shards. It would be like getting mad at the fact Gully Dwarves are unable to count higher then like five and thus don't get how there's a difference between five and fifty. I did read your Op I just don't agree with it. How does her injury annul a sacrifice? We knew soon after her injury that she wasn't dead. It wasn't like the deal with Nanamo at the end of ARR. That if you were playing the game when that part first came out us the players had months between the bloody banquet and how things unfolded after that once the story picked that storyline back up to not know that she didn't really die.

Even her quick save from the 2nd use of Flow isn't as cheapened as some of you feel that it is. Did you know that when she used it that Emet was capable of pulling souls out of the life stream? Or that he only did it to really solidify that he'd actually help you and not stop you from defeating the Lightwardends? Instead of being a heartless and cruel jerk and going "I could save her, but why would I?" or having it come at some kind of price. If anything Y'shtola getting sidelined twice is more of the writers not knowing what to do with her while also not knowing how to be able to have others at the time more in the spotlight. Either to show some character growth or that the group can figure things out without having one of the two academic powerhouses in play.

[Iscah]

The sadness of Moenbryda's death was never about how much it affected us personally, but how much it clearly affected the other Scions who knew her well.

Urianger in particular was struck so deeply by it at the time and has never stopped talking about her since – not in every line, of course, but she's clearly never far from his thoughts, and the payoff in Endwalker is entirely about addressing his emotions, not yours.

[aveyond-dreams]

The sadness of Moenbryda's death was never about how much it affected us personally, but how much it clearly affected the other Scions who knew her well.

Urianger in particular was struck so deeply by it at the time and has never stopped talking about her since – not in every line, of course, but she's clearly never far from his thoughts, and the payoff in Endwalker is entirely about addressing his emotions, not yours.

Once more, you have to consider the fact that for some of us this event took place over 8 years ago. The player's perception of such things should be considered when dealing with events that took place so far in the past. The fact that such a payoff was locked behind such a lengthy detour in the MSQ is also a contributing factor as to why it was a miss for people.

[Theodric]

Once more, you have to consider the fact that for some of us this event took place over 8 years ago. The player's perception of such things should be considered when dealing with events that took place so far in the past. The fact that such a payoff was locked behind such a lengthy detour in the MSQ is also a contributing factor as to why it was a miss for people.

Yeah, I was always indifferent to Moenbryda. She's one of the characters who was milked far too much for my liking over the years. I thought she had a decent send off back during ARR.

I would have liked to have seen Nabriales re-examined in the context of the party knowing the truth behind the Ascians. In hindsight, he's quite the chad given that he managed to take out a Scion. The only other on screen death of note from an Ascian is at Lahabrea's hands in the reworked ARR finale and even that is swiftly reversed by Hydaelyn.

[CrownySuccubus]

It was a miss? That's news to me. From what I've seen, most people (even those who were otherwise unimpressed with the Labyrinthos segment or even 6.0 as a whole), thought it was one of the highlights. Eight years is really not that long in terms of fiction, either, as someone who is engaged with a story can remember enough details from decades ago.

I'm sure there's a nebulous group of "some people" who didn't like it or weren't engaged with it, but you can always find "some people" who hold any opinion.

[Atelier-Bagur]

It was a miss? That's news to me. From what I've seen, most people (even those who were otherwise unimpressed with the Labyrinthos segment or even 6.0 as a whole), thought it was one of the highlights. Eight years is really not that long in terms of fiction, either, as someone who is engaged with a story can remember enough details from decades ago.

I'm sure there's a nebulous group of "some people" who didn't like it or weren't engaged with it, but you can always find "some people" who hold any opinion.

Honestly this is the first time Ive ever heard someone say otherwise to that scene. I mean, I can imagine it since not many people get attached to every single minute detail to the story.

Although I do agree that particular part in Labyrinthos part 2 dragged the pacing a bit too much with its "find these npcs". It's almost as bad as the Shb Kholusia part 2 Talos section which while I loved conceptually, the execution was just ....ugh (funny enough both pace sloggers happen around the same time in their respective acts in the main stories lol)

[NekoMataMata]

Ardbert's party was really flashy and they could kind of afford to be compared to the Scions.

Look at the root of the Scions as an organization. Of course there's going to be a ton of people with similar backgrounds. In comparison Ardbert's group was a bunch of outcasts that came together under Ardbert. The scions come together for a singular purpose while Ardbert's group has its own side objectives even though they work and travel together.

Even when we've taken the time to explore what might be side interests of the Scions such as for example when Tataru messed around with becoming an Arcanist(poor example I know but empty mind right now), it all circles back to wanting to benefit the organization. Plus some of it's just really, really uncompelling compared to the trials that Ardbert's party members go through.

The Scions can be a tiny bit boring but a lot of it is by story design. You'd have to change really important details of the story to actually make them not be this way.

[aveyond-dreams]

In terms of parties who are part of or make up an organization of some kind, I cannot help but recall my experience many years ago when I played Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days. Despite having 13-14 members, Organization XIII at the time was able to provide much in the way of visual variety and distinct personalities. Love or hate those characters, they each brought something unique to the table for their respective fans to enjoy. The same kind of diversity just doesn't exist with the scions.

These were characters with flaws that were often put on display over the course of the Kingdom Hearts games, and although being a game intended for younger audiences the stakes in these games for these characters felt more pronounced than those over the course of FFXIV's season 1. Kingdom Hearts however does have a tendency to let characters off the hook eventually, but the payoff felt a lot more earned than when compared to the numerous times the scions have been saved from the consequences of their own actions.

[Atelier-Bagur]

In terms of parties who are part of or make up an organization of some kind, I cannot help but recall my experience many years ago when I played Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days. Despite having 13-14 members, Organization XIII at the time was able to provide much in the way of visual variety and distinct personalities. Love or hate those characters, they each brought something unique to the table for their respective fans to enjoy. The same kind of diversity just doesn't exist with the scions.

These were characters with flaws that were often put on display over the course of the Kingdom Hearts games, and although being a game intended for younger audiences the stakes in these games for these characters felt more pronounced than those over the course of FFXIV's season 1. Kingdom Hearts however does have a tendency to let characters off the hook eventually, but the payoff felt a lot more earned than when compared to the numerous times the scions have been saved from the consequences of their own actions.

are we seriously trying to sell KH's rogue's gallery of buffonery that is Organization XIII now?

The only "depth" any of those members (sans Roxas, Saix and Axel I suppose) where how fun and cool their respective boss fights were perfectly showcasing their personalities and quirks in a gameplay aspect and thats it. One of my faves out of this group was Marluxia but let me tell you, its wasnt because he was a compelling or interesting character in the slightest. It was because I like his theme of being a grim reaper represented by japanese cherry blossoms which is extremely cool as a design choice. And this made him memorable due to his fun boss fight in KH2FM. But thats all I cared for that character since his actual role in the plot and personality was just standard stuff.

I've played the KH games and I can still tell you that 80% of Organization XIII are just ....whatever in terms of character development. I think people like them due to their interesting character designs and potential each could've had rather than what was given in the games.