Ardbert's Party vs the Scions Analysis

[Lustre]

Man idk what happening in here lmao whoever posting like crazy I got on ignore but just came here to say Raubaun cutting that lala in half is one of the msq high points. Little guy deserved it. But yeah, it's crazy to think of how many things the bloody banquet went onto shape in terms of consequences, compared to consequences of ANYTHING that came afterwards. Thancred lost his ability to use aether, spent 2 months in dravania living like a caveman. Minfilia got Primal'd by Genacidlyn and Yshtola went blind... sort of. Iirc anyway. Then you look at HW-Shb and every moment where something couldve happened, it didnt. Tension builds and builds and then..... nothing.

Take for example Thancred. I really like Thancred, and so, after his fight with Ranjit where he's lying on the sand in Amh Araeng... first time through msq I really thought he was gonna die. Then he didn't die, and I was like phew that's a relief! But at this point, looking back on it, that wouldve been the perfect time for it to happen. His arc is fulfilled, he's protected the people he loves, and he now has to pay the price of that. Now he's just... around. He did so little in EW, sometimes I forgot he was even a part of the team. Whereas if he had croaked in ShB, the talk of "sacrifices" in EW wouldve rang home much more true, and wouldve resonated with more people. But unfortunately they seem unable to take any risks whatsoever for this cast of characters. It's hard to care about what happens when everybody is wrapped in 1000 layers of plot armor.

[VelKallor]

What's your point exactly? Just because it's inspired by the Red Wedding doesn't mean it serves the same role in the story. Since, you know, the actual Red Wedding wasn't retconned just a few hours later by nonsensical story developments.
It's a shallow reference to the Red Wedding without the consequences.

..no consequences.

Right...so we went to Ishgard for the fun of it.

Good grief...

Nope. I watched the first episode of GoT, got bored and so that was that. Still, i fail to see how that's relevant to what i said.

This will, I believe, illustrate my point.

Here

[Rulakir]

It's a shallow reference to the Red Wedding without the consequences.

This. People died and stayed dead after the Red Wedding. At best it was a push to send us to Ishgard that didn't even last past the two introductory quest chains of HW before it turns out Nanamo is alive and we could return if we wanted. All of the Scions are fine except for Minfilia and even she's written as having 'followed her heart'.

Y'shtola's "blindness" became a superpower and Thancred's inability to manipulate aether is a mild inconvenience that puts him equivalent to a Garlean, hardly that detrimental.

[Illmaeran]

I still struggle to see how this game would be worsened if a return to Heavensward style writing ever occurred, as it is still regarded as one the strongest expansions. Why can’t we have strong character arcs with significant emotional growth again?

Would anyone posting in this thread actually be turned off from playing if we saw a return to Heavensward’s way of writing the MSQ?

I would be overjoyed to have expansions with stand-alone story arcs with the writing quality and character development of HW.

We had our ten year epic saga that had moments of high quality and moments of low quality and, in my opinion, a resolution that felt rushed and incomplete. I am, and continue to be, satisfied with EW in that I appreciated the heart wrenching plot points as well as the slower world-building moments. The pacing was off and I believe it would have been better completed in one of the 6.X story patches rather than getting crammed into the 6.0 content only.

After 2.0-6.0 rollercoaster ride, I'm ready for smaller self-contained story arcs with more personal and NPC character development.

[Kazhar]

..no consequences.

Right...so we went to Ishgard for the fun of it.

Good grief...

Do you always act so smug to hide the fact that you have nothing to say?
Yes, no consequences. Few hours after the beginning of Heavensward, Raubahn is out of jail, Nanamo is alive, we're no longer a fugitive and the political situation in Ul'dah is basically the exact same as it was before, minus Teledji.
Most it did for the Scions is that Thancred can no longer use aether and Y'shtola is blind, which, in both cases, were never treated with the attention it deserves. (The latter can still read books ffs!). At least it got us rid of Minfillia, even though it's unclear if she would have still become the voice of Hydaelyn without those events.

In Game of Thrones, the Red Wedding killed two major protagonists, permanently altered the entire political landscape of Westeros, acted as a major motivation for many other major protagonists and kickstarted multiple new plotlines.

Do you think that when people ask for a Red Wedding, the FFXIV version is what they're interested in? Ultimately one big fakeout?

[VelKallor]

Do you always act so smug to hide the fact that you have nothing to say?

To quote Delenn: "You came farther to say even less"

Yet the ARR events did have massive consequences, not the least of which was Minfilia's disappearance, which later had MASSIVE impact.

Yes, no consequences. Few hours after the beginning of Heavensward, Raubahn is out of jail, Nanamo is alive, we're no longer a fugitive and the political situation in Ul'dah is basically the exact same as it was before, minus Teledji.

No consequences?

Yshtola's eyes, Thancred's injuries, Minfilia's disappearance to become the Voice of the Mother, our forced exile to Ishgard and the involvement in a thousand year old war..which later had HUGE impact as it involved us with Tiamat, Mother of the First Brood, said Ishgard exile also resulting on our loss of the Blessing of Light , a rapport with Midgardsormr which we would NEVER have had otherwise, said rapport being an essential ingredient in resolving the Dragonsong War.

Do you REALLY think that Hraesvelgar would have even listened to us had Midgardsormr NOT intervened on our behalf?

Midgardsormr also intervened with Tiamat, convinced her to trust us....we would have been in deep trouble had we not met him....the ramifications of that night were and are far reaching.

Most it did for the Scions is that Thancred can no longer use aether and Y'shtola is blind

She is NOT blind, she uses aether to see.

, which, in both cases, were never treated with the attention it deserves. (The latter can still read books ffs!). At least it got us rid of Minfillia, even though it's unclear if she would have still become the voice of Hydaelyn without those events.

"Got rid of Minfilia?"

Oh yes she whom "everyone" wanted gone..according to one or two people.....

In Game of Thrones, the Red Wedding killed two major protagonists, permanently altered the entire political landscape of Westeros, acted as a major motivation for many other major protagonists and kickstarted multiple new plotlines. Do you think that when people ask for a Red Wedding, the FFXIV version is what they're interested in? Ultimately one big fakeout?

The ARR ending was a concatenation of events that had far reaching effects..even now. Tiamat has not been seen for a while, but our freeing her from her own grief is not something that she, or her brood, will ever forget....and we MAY be headed to Meracydia, where our previous actions may have serious repercussions.

We ended a hopeless, self perpetuating war and won the trust of a race that sees a thousand years as a blink of an eye, they are ancient in their wisdom..and old in their power.

Everything we did on that one fateful night led us to where we are now. Every single step was towards this place, this one moment in time.

As Satai Delenn once told Commander Sinclair.....

" Commander, you know everything about your stone garden, but clearly, you have not spent nearly enough time......looking at it"

[Kazhar]

Said Ishgard exile also resulting on our loss of the Blessing of Light , a rapport with Midgardsormr which we would NEVER have had otherwise, said rapport being an essential ingredient in resolving the Dragonsong War.

Do you REALLY think that Hraesvelgar would have even listened to us had Midgardsormr NOT intervened on our behalf?

Midgardsormr also intervened with Tiamat, convinced her to trust us....we would have been in deep trouble had we not met him....the ramifications of that night were and are far reaching.

The loss of our Blessing of Light and our involvment with Midgardsormr happened before the Ishgard exile. For someone who opens and closes their completely unhinged rant with two freaking quotes I'd expect you to know basic facts about the story timeline. You clearly have not spent enough time looking at it.
By the way, what even IS that post? Go touch some grass please.

She is NOT blind, she uses aether to see.

Yes, so we agree it was nothing but a very minor setback for her? Are you even aware you're proving my point? *looks at the rest of the post* Yeah, probably not.

"Got rid of Minfilia?"

Oh yes she whom "everyone" wanted gone..according to one or two people.....

Completely irrelevant, I've never claimed this.

I'm not sure I have a reason to even bother with the rest, as all you're doing is writing a list of events which happens after the Bloody Banquet, but not in consequence in the Bloody Banquet.
Want some proof? Put the Warrior of Light alone in Ishgard and pretty much the same story happens without fail. The Bloody Banquet itself is irrelevant, you could remove it and it changes very little for the story (and no need to brainstorm the idea, since it actually removes itself a few quests into Heavensward).

[Iscah]

She is NOT blind, she uses aether to see.

She uses aether to see because she is blind. Her eyes don't work any more.

I don't think they highlight the effect on her enough, whether as a negative or just an interesting perspective, but it has certainly had an impact on how she sees the world. She couldn't recognise us when we arrived in Rak'tika and our aether has been altered by trapping the Wardens, so it seems she has no visual sense of people at all, and she does at least sometimes ask for help regarding how things look.

She's very lucky that ink tends to be aetherially conductive so she can still read by sensing it.


Something else to note is that the bigger, though not well explored, effect on her was not losing her eyesight in the Lifestream but simply being trapped in there for so long. She says at the time (approximately) that she feels the experience has changed her in ways she can't explain.

[Avidria]

This. People died and stayed dead after the Red Wedding. At best it was a push to send us to Ishgard that didn't even last past the two introductory quest chains of HW before it turns out Nanamo is alive and we could return if we wanted. All of the Scions are fine except for Minfilia and even she's written as having 'followed her heart'.

Y'shtola's "blindness" became a superpower and Thancred's inability to manipulate aether is a mild inconvenience that puts him equivalent to a Garlean, hardly that detrimental.

I agree with the first part, but the second... The problem with the impacts on Y'shtola and Thancred is really more that the negatives either aren't obvious or aren't actually shown well enough, not that they aren't negatives. Y'shtola has been in situations where her blindness is disadvantageous, it's just usually balanced by either some other advantage or someone else helping her out.

I mean one of the scenes that really stood out to me in Shadowbringers was the one where she asked Urianger to describe the night sky to her. Like, yeah, she has a different way to "see" and the effects that's having on her health aren't really visible at all (yet?? Idk how long miqos generally live lmao) but that doesn't mean it hasn't had an impact on her.

And yeah, sure, the Garleans never had the ability to manipulate aether, but Thancred did and lost it. He had to learn a completely new way to fight, and is unable to do things he used to that everyone around him can still do easily (ie teleporting and traveling by aetheryte).

Like, I have some issues with how that whole end of ARR/transition to heavenward was handled, but I entirely disagree with the notion that Thancred and Y'shtola somehow didn't suffer lasting consequences from what happened there. I think it should be shown more (and yeah I really don't understand how Y'shtola can read anything and everything apparently, like, surely there are some texts or references that don't have aether infused ink?? Right??) but they also definitely didn't walk off totally unscathed.

[VelKallor]

I'm not sure I have a reason to even bother with the rest, as all you're doing is writing a list of events which happens after the Bloody Banquet, but not in consequence in the Bloody Banquet.
Want some proof? Put the Warrior of Light alone in Ishgard and pretty much the same story happens without fail. The Bloody Banquet itself is irrelevant, you could remove it and it changes very little for the story (and no need to brainstorm the idea, since it actually removes itself a few quests into Heavensward).

*rolls eyes*

I'd be very interested in seeing your entire comprehensive rewrite of the MSQ one day.

Let me know when its finished.