Ardbert's Party vs the Scions Analysis

[Rulakir]

Whereas the WoL was an Adventurer at heart, as Zenos (of all people) pointed out, and (at least initally) just sorta went along with what was happening around them.

I don't feel like we've ever been an "adventurer at heart" though to the extent that applying that persona to the WoL felt out of the blue. Throughout ARR, I felt like the WoL was just a tool (both figuratively and literally) who was easily manipulated by people into becoming their weapon - a theme that sadly came full circle in EW. *sigh* (SB wasn't much better, but at least it offered diverse dialog options.) Even being a traveler didn't fit. Where has the WoL gone of their own volition outside of the intro cutscene on the chocobo carriage?

Like I said, this is the downside of having the WoL join an organization that calls all the shots. I've played RPGs with silent protagonists before, but FFXIV is particularly bad when it comes to stripping the player character of any sense of autonomy. Dialog options helped, but as we saw with EW if they're pushing a narrative you either won't get any or just 3 ways of saying the same thing.

[Iscah]

I've played RPGs with silent protagonists before, but FFXIV is particularly bad when it comes to stripping the player character of any sense of autonomy. Dialog options helped, but as we saw with EW if they're pushing a narrative you either won't get any or just 3 ways of saying the same thing.

I think this is a matter of expectations. This is a JRPG and the protagonist doesn't necessarily get any choice at all. They are a fixed character in the narrative and if you go into this game expecting control over your actions, you are going to be perennially disappointed because it's just not that sort of game.

Dialogue options at key points in the story aren't really designed to be options so much as "your character has a spoken line here; choose how they say it".

[Graeham]

TV Tropes was a mistake. It is not a writing textbook

We know that the tvtrop is not peer review like the wikipedia so must be careful. But is still the good guide to teach the correct writing. The lackluster story writer guild team use this all the time as reference to write the fiction for the forum player along with end season of the Game of the Thrones and the Mass Effect Andromeda.

Rulerkir from writers guild makes the good point. If we write the lines for the chara you can tell them your emotion. Like when King Solus asks the question in the Elpis past we can say 'Vanar is the bad guy' or 'I lov the Emperor'. And then the game can change to give you the very secret good ending where the Eorzea die and is replaced by the Ascian God chara. And because we are now God chara like Ascian the lackluster story writers guild can finally do the very hard fight like the Extreme primal to see what happen in there and see if any story change is needed. Is unfair that the story is gait behind the raid because is harder to fix story if we can not see it.

[SnowVix]

We know that the tvtrop is not peer review like the wikipedia so must be careful. But is still the good guide to teach the correct writing. The lackluster story writer guild team use this all the time as reference to write the fiction for the forum player along with end season of the Game of the Thrones and the Mass Effect Andromeda.

TVTropes is literally not a teaching site. Seriously, take a real writing course and stop trying to treat TVTropes as something it isn't, and as something it, itself does not claim to be.

[CrownySuccubus]

I don't feel like we've ever been an "adventurer at heart" though to the extent that applying that persona to the WoL felt out of the blue. Throughout ARR, I felt like the WoL was just a tool (both figuratively and literally) who was easily manipulated by people into becoming their weapon - a theme that sadly came full circle in EW. *sigh* (SB wasn't much better, but at least it offered diverse dialog options.) Even being a traveler didn't fit. Where has the WoL gone of their own volition outside of the intro cutscene on the chocobo carriage?

Pretty much any sidequest or content outside of MSQs?

It's easy to forget, but since FFXIV is an MMO, the basic idea is that whatever you get up to with your WOL outside of the direct plot is your character going off into adventures or finding fame and fortune on their own. The MSQs are, in a sense, the WOL's "Day Job" while everything else is what your character does because they "want" to. Not everything works out in this sense, of course, but that's the general premise.

Completely irrelevant post.

K.

[Rulakir]

This is a JRPG and the protagonist doesn't necessarily get any choice at all.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I don't expect the game to be 'choose your own adventure', just that especially if you're going to tell me my character is a traveler and adventurer I'm going to need some evidence of that beyond the WoL going wherever the Scions tell them to go and doing whatever the Scions tell them to do.

I don't know what other JRPGs you've played, but from my experience most of them do a better job at making it appear your character is making their own decisions and not just following orders. I also wouldn't underestimate the power of dialog options. They may not change anything, but there's a catharsis involved at being able to respond certain ways rather than your character forcibly reacting only one way. This was particularly an issue throughout EW with people feeling disconnected from their WoL.

Regardless, I didn't think my thoughts on how the WoL is handled would derail the thread so much, especially when my main point is it was a mistake to have the player character join a homogeneous organization, full of redundant characters who call all the shots. It's a mess the writers have burrowed themselves into and don't seem keen to dig themselves out of either.

[MikkoAkure]

I don't feel like we've ever been an "adventurer at heart" though to the extent that applying that persona to the WoL felt out of the blue. Throughout ARR, I felt like the WoL was just a tool (both figuratively and literally) who was easily manipulated by people into becoming their weapon - a theme that sadly came full circle in EW. *sigh* (SB wasn't much better, but at least it offered diverse dialog options.) Even being a traveler didn't fit. Where has the WoL gone of their own volition outside of the intro cutscene on the chocobo carriage?

Like I said, this is the downside of having the WoL join an organization that calls all the shots. I've played RPGs with silent protagonists before, but FFXIV is particularly bad when it comes to stripping the player character of any sense of autonomy. Dialog options helped, but as we saw with EW if they're pushing a narrative you either won't get any or just 3 ways of saying the same thing.

I never saw any manipulation of the WoL. I feel like you're being more than a bit overdramatic.

We start working with the Scions because on our first few days in Eorzea, the Ascians try to kill us just because we're a random traveler and that happened before any of the super-powered stuff. The only influence Hydaelyn had at that point was a bad dream. A group of people trying to kill you at your first meeting tends to color your opinions and push you into the arms of the people facing against them. Then the Ascians made no attempt at first to explain themselves or extend an olive branch, doubling-down on trying to kill us because we have the Echo and the Blessing.

On the opposite end, you have Lahabrea, who openly admitted to manipulating the beastman tribes and Gaius so that he can allow his god to be reborn. I'm not sure how you think that would be the better option. He only attempted to explain himself further that "dark god this" and dark god that" after trying and failing to blast us with Ultima and then still tried to kill us after using our friend's body. Emet-Selch only got involved and told us his story because all attempts from the Ascians to fight us had failed and we had already downed a Lightwarden, beginning to thwart his plan for the next Calamity.

Funnily enough, the Ascians would have won if he hadn't involved himself because if we killed all the Lightwardens with no outlet, we would have rampaged and caused the Calamity ourselves. All he had to do, was do nothing. Y'shtola would have disappeared into Flow in the jungle, we would have downed Vauthry with great effort, and then we wouldn't have been able to contain the light anymore and go berserk like he said we would have if we didn't happen to have an enemy made out of darkness to face and poured all the light into a weapon to kill him with. And that's not even counting the time where after we blasted him, he plucked us out of the Ascian meeting room, allowing us to kill Elidibus and end any possibility of the Ascian plan happening for good.

[aveyond-dreams]

It is unfortunate that some posters chose to not engage with the discussion subject in a more faithful manner, nevertheless I still stand by the fact that the Warriors of Darkness make for a better written party than the Scions. I have already explained at length my reasons as to why, and until improvements are seen in the current cast’s characterization I cannot say with confidence that I am looking forward to their continued presence. It is important to look back and re-examine what worked and what hasn’t, in order for future storytelling to improve.

[VirusOnline]

i had the pleasure of going through these role quests thoroughly in shb and learning about the backstories of ardbert and his ppls

ngl but - I CARE MORE ABOUT ARDBERT AND HIS PPLS THAN I DO THE SCIONS

there is one char in his group that i cried about but i can't quite remember

[Rowde]

Hopefully they can use the Relic Questline in EW as an excuse to roll Hildibrand and company into the msq next expansion
Then we can have dynamic cutscenes that break teh model rigging all the time!