Ardbert's Party vs the Scions Analysis

[Raoabolic]

And how would you want that to happen? If you were to work with what we were given but switch the Estinien buys the map and we don't go and collect the other bit? Or would you throw everything in the trash and not even have the Tataru sending us to Raz-at-Han to gather information on an interesting story? Also don't say at a random bar as I'm fairly certain that the last time the WoL went to a bar where we weren't searching for a friend or the person we were meeting at one wasn't already there was when we got handed a drugged mug of ale. Remember the Wol also has just started to re-trust eating and drinking food. I'm so glad we didn't eat what Fandaniel placed before us. Not that I think Zenos would drug us or that Fandaniel would risk drugging Zenos. I do however wouldn't put it past Fandaniel drugging us and going oppsie idk how that happened.

It's called taking one or two fan favorites and slowly introducing new characters into the cast through the .x patches. Hell, nothing is saying that you can't have a "With special guest _____ of the former Scions!" every patch since they can be considered the wiser of the cast since the player has seen them grow as characters (lol) while the new characters can be considered the reason why you narratively have to retell some things for newer players. But i'm not writing the MSQ or work for SE so there is not much point to spending days arguing on "if they did X then Y would be better!".

[aveyond-dreams]

And how would you want that to happen? If you were to work with what we were given but switch the Estinien buys the map and we don't go and collect the other bit? Or would you throw everything in the trash and not even have the Tataru sending us to Raz-at-Han to gather information on an interesting story? Also don't say at a random bar as I'm fairly certain that the last time the WoL went to a bar where we weren't searching for a friend or the person we were meeting at one wasn't already there was when we got handed a drugged mug of ale. Remember the Wol also has just started to re-trust eating and drinking food. I'm so glad we didn't eat what Fandaniel placed before us. Not that I think Zenos would drug us or that Fandaniel would risk drugging Zenos. I do however wouldn't put it past Fandaniel drugging us and going oppsie idk how that happened.

You do know that introducing new party members doesn't need to be all that complicated, and I'm not even going to touch on what you've brought up about the WoL having to relearn to trust in the food and drink others provide to him. The easiest scenario really is for the WoL to just go to a bar and mingle with others who are pursuing a mark of some kind.

Games like FFVI have us recruiting Shadow from a bar in some opportunities. In FFIX you meet Freya at the bar in Lindblum. Various Tactics game make use of taverns for the recruitment of mercenaries and other party members. This isn't a foreign concept that needs a lengthy argument against it. They had the chance to do something better but instead all we got in 6.1 was the same tired old cast all over again.

They did not follow through with their teasing of new characters and the game will not be better off if something isn't done to remedy the situation with the scions' writing.

[hydralus]

And how would you want that to happen? If you were to work with what we were given but switch the Estinien buys the map and we don't go and collect the other bit? Or would you throw everything in the trash and not even have the Tataru sending us to Raz-at-Han to gather information on an interesting story? Also don't say at a random bar as I'm fairly certain that the last time the WoL went to a bar where we weren't searching for a friend or the person we were meeting at one wasn't already there was when we got handed a drugged mug of ale. Remember the Wol also has just started to re-trust eating and drinking food. I'm so glad we didn't eat what Fandaniel placed before us. Not that I think Zenos would drug us or that Fandaniel would risk drugging Zenos. I do however wouldn't put it past Fandaniel drugging us and going oppsie idk how that happened.

Well the first thing to do to get away from the scions is to not go right back to them the moment you have a chance. They could have had the exact same storyline except instead of the scions showing up, you could have other characters introduce themselves. A warrior wanting to help their village, a dickish rogue who overheard 'treasure' who winds up helping the group for a cut of the loot, etc etc. Not sure what's so hard about all that.

Personally I'd prefer of the main character had things they actually wanted. Maybe the WoL needs some fertilizer for their farm and heads to the nearest village for some chocobo-shite. On the way they hear a trader in distress and <new character> trying to fend off a bunch of bandits. They promise all the manure they can carry if the WoL will just help them with the bandit bullies.

Perhaps it's a bit lofty after saving the known universe but it's not my fault that's where they went with their story. I was all for returning to basic adventuring after such a grandiose overarching story but here they are planning to dimension hop.

[Rulakir]

Another good thing about FFIV is that the main character was forced to atone for supporting a misguided cause. I think it would be pretty interesting to see the protagonists in this game go through such an ordeal - though the most obvious route to having that play out was, unfortunately, deliberately 'subverted' during Endwalker.

Self proclaimed heroes who somehow always end up on the winning side don't really resonate much with me.

This is a primary reason I came to no longer like the Scions. No consequences for them has been an issue since SB, but I felt like EW shone a spotlight upon all of their flaws from their homogeneity, to their redundancy, to their immortality. Add in the blatant hypocrisy in terms of their values, the lack of reflection upon it, how they're supposedly the poster children for overcoming suffering and despair when they've led the most privileged lives of most of the characters we've encountered (with only a couple of exceptions), and I don't see what purpose they serve. They're just comfort characters who are always right and never lose, that's not interesting or compelling to me and, worse, it's extremely off-putting now after how ethically questionable EW was.

[Atelier-Bagur]

This is a primary reason I came to no longer like the Scions. No consequences for them has been an issue since SB, but I felt like EW shone a spotlight upon all of their flaws from their homogeneity, to their redundancy, to their immortality. Add in the blatant hypocrisy in terms of their values, the lack of reflection upon it, how they're supposedly the poster children for overcoming suffering and despair when they've led the most privileged lives of most of the characters we've encountered (with only a couple of exceptions), and I don't see what purpose they serve. They're just comfort characters who are always right and never lose, that's not interesting or compelling to me and, worse, it's extremely off-putting now after how ethically questionable EW was.

Pray tell, how the Scions are being blatant hypocrites in their values in EW. Are we even playing the same game here

[aveyond-dreams]

Pray tell, how the Scions are being blatant hypocrites in their values in EW. Are we even playing the same game here

The story of Endwalker imparted the lesson that suffering is the key to resilience and that no matter the strife you have to move on. However, the Scions don't go through that much strife over the course of the MSQ - especially when compared to parties like Ardbert's. They constantly have the consequences of their actions handwaved away with increasing speed and this is compromising the impact of the message.

[CrownySuccubus]

The story of Endwalker imparted the lesson that suffering is the key to resilience and that no matter the strife you have to move on. However, the Scions don't go through that much strife over the course of the MSQ - especially when compared to parties like Ardbert's. They constantly have the consequences of their actions handwaved away with increasing speed and this is compromising the impact of the message.

To repeat some of what I said before:

I can feel the same sympathy for the Scions, who try to help people in need, as a social or medical worker. People IRL can and do develop PTSD and other psychological traumas from being exposed to suffering, underprivileged and dying people. Even if those people themselves come from wealthy or privileged lifestyles and get to go home to warm meals, a loving family, and a comfortable bed, I would find it disrespectful and diminishing to say that the pain they feel from that secondhand exposure means nothing. A nurse that watches her patient slowly die in front of her with no way to stop it, in my opinion, doesn't get to be talked-down-to about suffering, no matter how big her bank account is. That's to say nothing of the fact that the Scions do put their lives at risk on an almost constant basis -- it's easy to forget because this is fiction and all, but near-death experiences aren't exactly something a human being can experience even once in a lifetime and just walk away from unaffected.

While it appears that we both agree on the argument of "X character didn't suffer enough" is that this is fundamentally a stupid way to justify a heroic character's motives. But where we appear to differ here is that whilemy argument is, "it doesn't matter how much you suffered, any amount is enough", your argument appears to be "therefore, the Scions should have suffered a lot more". Clearly, I disagree with the latter standpoint, because I think the argument of "hasn't suffered enough" is stupid in and of itself, and thus it doesn't matter how much more suffering you add to any specific character(s) to facilitate that narrative. The problem with Suffering Olympics is that there's always a way to make something worse. If someone watched their family die, someone else could have watched their family be tortured to death. If someone is starving, someone else can be starving AND have leprosy. If someone has a combination of all the above, someone else can have all of the above, AND have one arm, one leg, one eye and dementia.

There's no end to that rabbit hole once you start going down it.

[aveyond-dreams]

Your post still does nothing to address the fact that stories where not much is happening or where you can easily predict that everything will be fine with these characters isn't exactly masterful work. After Heavensward and Shadowbringers I expect better. As it stands now the main story of FFXIV is the least interesting feature I'm looking forward to with only the promise of endgame content to keep me mildly entertained until the major releases of late 2022 and 2023 arrive.

This should not be happening for someone who was as invested in the main story as I was. When you manage to turn the same people who would've at one point praised this game's story into people who recommend others avoid FFXIV on the basis of the story not being worthwhile, it is indicative of a major problem.

[CrownySuccubus]

Your post still does nothing to address the fact that stories where not much is happening or where you can easily predict that everything will be fine with these characters isn't exactly masterful work. After Heavensward and Shadowbringers I expect better. As it stands now the main story of FFXIV is the least interesting feature I'm looking forward to with only the promise of endgame content to keep me mildly entertained until the major releases of late 2022 and 2023 arrive.

This should not be happening for someone who was as invested in the main story as I was.

That's a problem that's so specific that I don't even think it counts as subjective. Every story has tropes, which inherently make the story predictable to some degree. Even subverting certain tropes can be predictable, since the subversions or fakeouts are usually just different tropes. Being "predictable" is not inherently a problem for an entertaining work of fiction. The Lord of the Rings has one of the most predictable plots ever, and it's a masterpiece of literature.

But even with that said, I have severe doubts that Endwalker was a predictable as claimed. I'm sure there are some people who figured out specific plot points (for instance, that the heroes would win), but probably not the how or why. Claiming something was "predictable" is one of those things that people can easily fool themselves into thinking in retrospect.

[SannaR]

It's called taking one or two fan favorites and slowly introducing new characters into the cast through the .x patches. Hell, nothing is saying that you can't have a "With special guest _____ of the former Scions!" every patch since they can be considered the wiser of the cast since the player has seen them grow as characters (lol) while the new characters can be considered the reason why you narratively have to retell some things for newer players. But i'm not writing the MSQ or work for SE so there is not much point to spending days arguing on "if they did X then Y would be better!".

But slowly working in new people while bringing along one or two fan favorites or having a Scion of the week isn't what those who fully expected the official non redacted release of the Scions have split up to mean completely fresh start want. They wanted a completely fresh start to have gone and bench the whole team forever. Better yet that they died at some point before 6.1.

They for whatever reasons don't understand or care that the official disbanding is similar to what the Citadel Council puts out as to what attacked the Citadel at the end of ME1 as the public and thus official response was that it was done by Geth. Where the unofficial and redacted story is that it was the Reapers even if the Council still doesn't fully believe that there was more than just Sovereign.