Ardbert's Party vs the Scions Analysis

[aveyond-dreams]

The sadness of Moenbryda's death was never about how much it affected us personally, but how much it clearly affected the other Scions who knew her well.

Urianger in particular was struck so deeply by it at the time and has never stopped talking about her since – not in every line, of course, but she's clearly never far from his thoughts, and the payoff in Endwalker is entirely about addressing his emotions, not yours.

Once more, you have to consider the fact that for some of us this event took place over 8 years ago. The player's perception of such things should be considered when dealing with events that took place so far in the past. The fact that such a payoff was locked behind such a lengthy detour in the MSQ is also a contributing factor as to why it was a miss for people.

[CrownySuccubus]

It was a miss? That's news to me. From what I've seen, most people (even those who were otherwise unimpressed with the Labyrinthos segment or even 6.0 as a whole), thought it was one of the highlights. Eight years is really not that long in terms of fiction, either, as someone who is engaged with a story can remember enough details from decades ago.

I'm sure there's a nebulous group of "some people" who didn't like it or weren't engaged with it, but you can always find "some people" who hold any opinion.

[NekoMataMata]

Ardbert's party was really flashy and they could kind of afford to be compared to the Scions.

Look at the root of the Scions as an organization. Of course there's going to be a ton of people with similar backgrounds. In comparison Ardbert's group was a bunch of outcasts that came together under Ardbert. The scions come together for a singular purpose while Ardbert's group has its own side objectives even though they work and travel together.

Even when we've taken the time to explore what might be side interests of the Scions such as for example when Tataru messed around with becoming an Arcanist(poor example I know but empty mind right now), it all circles back to wanting to benefit the organization. Plus some of it's just really, really uncompelling compared to the trials that Ardbert's party members go through.

The Scions can be a tiny bit boring but a lot of it is by story design. You'd have to change really important details of the story to actually make them not be this way.

[Theodric]

Once more, you have to consider the fact that for some of us this event took place over 8 years ago. The player's perception of such things should be considered when dealing with events that took place so far in the past. The fact that such a payoff was locked behind such a lengthy detour in the MSQ is also a contributing factor as to why it was a miss for people.

Yeah, I was always indifferent to Moenbryda. She's one of the characters who was milked far too much for my liking over the years. I thought she had a decent send off back during ARR.

I would have liked to have seen Nabriales re-examined in the context of the party knowing the truth behind the Ascians. In hindsight, he's quite the chad given that he managed to take out a Scion. The only other on screen death of note from an Ascian is at Lahabrea's hands in the reworked ARR finale and even that is swiftly reversed by Hydaelyn.

[aveyond-dreams]

In terms of parties who are part of or make up an organization of some kind, I cannot help but recall my experience many years ago when I played Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days. Despite having 13-14 members, Organization XIII at the time was able to provide much in the way of visual variety and distinct personalities. Love or hate those characters, they each brought something unique to the table for their respective fans to enjoy. The same kind of diversity just doesn't exist with the scions.

These were characters with flaws that were often put on display over the course of the Kingdom Hearts games, and although being a game intended for younger audiences the stakes in these games for these characters felt more pronounced than those over the course of FFXIV's season 1. Kingdom Hearts however does have a tendency to let characters off the hook eventually, but the payoff felt a lot more earned than when compared to the numerous times the scions have been saved from the consequences of their own actions.

[Atelier-Bagur]

It was a miss? That's news to me. From what I've seen, most people (even those who were otherwise unimpressed with the Labyrinthos segment or even 6.0 as a whole), thought it was one of the highlights. Eight years is really not that long in terms of fiction, either, as someone who is engaged with a story can remember enough details from decades ago.

I'm sure there's a nebulous group of "some people" who didn't like it or weren't engaged with it, but you can always find "some people" who hold any opinion.

Honestly this is the first time Ive ever heard someone say otherwise to that scene. I mean, I can imagine it since not many people get attached to every single minute detail to the story.

Although I do agree that particular part in Labyrinthos part 2 dragged the pacing a bit too much with its "find these npcs". It's almost as bad as the Shb Kholusia part 2 Talos section which while I loved conceptually, the execution was just ....ugh (funny enough both pace sloggers happen around the same time in their respective acts in the main stories lol)

[Atelier-Bagur]

In terms of parties who are part of or make up an organization of some kind, I cannot help but recall my experience many years ago when I played Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days. Despite having 13-14 members, Organization XIII at the time was able to provide much in the way of visual variety and distinct personalities. Love or hate those characters, they each brought something unique to the table for their respective fans to enjoy. The same kind of diversity just doesn't exist with the scions.

These were characters with flaws that were often put on display over the course of the Kingdom Hearts games, and although being a game intended for younger audiences the stakes in these games for these characters felt more pronounced than those over the course of FFXIV's season 1. Kingdom Hearts however does have a tendency to let characters off the hook eventually, but the payoff felt a lot more earned than when compared to the numerous times the scions have been saved from the consequences of their own actions.

are we seriously trying to sell KH's rogue's gallery of buffonery that is Organization XIII now?

The only "depth" any of those members (sans Roxas, Saix and Axel I suppose) where how fun and cool their respective boss fights were perfectly showcasing their personalities and quirks in a gameplay aspect and thats it. One of my faves out of this group was Marluxia but let me tell you, its wasnt because he was a compelling or interesting character in the slightest. It was because I like his theme of being a grim reaper represented by japanese cherry blossoms which is extremely cool as a design choice. And this made him memorable due to his fun boss fight in KH2FM. But thats all I cared for that character since his actual role in the plot and personality was just standard stuff.

I've played the KH games and I can still tell you that 80% of Organization XIII are just ....whatever in terms of character development. I think people like them due to their interesting character designs and potential each could've had rather than what was given in the games.

[aveyond-dreams]

Thank you for affirming that interesting visual designs do much in the way of increasing the palatability of these characters, even if they have limited screentime. However, I do think that these characters had sufficient depth for the story they were trying to tell and as you mention, each had distinct personalities and quirks that helped set them apart from each other. These are some positive design principles which should be considered for the makeup of the Season 2 cast.

[Theodric]

I thought they played off of each other rather nicely. I believe they were also given some form of 'happy ending' as well when all was said and done?

Though if they don't count for whatever reason then one needs only look at the way in which the Turks play off of each other and Rufus Shinra throughout Final Fantasy VII and its various spin off titles.

[CrownySuccubus]

In terms of parties who are part of or make up an organization of some kind, I cannot help but recall my experience many years ago when I played Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days. Despite having 13-14 members, Organization XIII at the time was able to provide much in the way of visual variety and distinct personalities. Love or hate those characters, they each brought something unique to the table for their respective fans to enjoy. The same kind of diversity just doesn't exist with the scions.

Yeah, no thanks to that. I mentioned in the other thread how some games (noteably, FFIX) uses shallowness or one-note jokes/gimmicks to give characters the illusion of "diversity" when they're all just flat characters. Another example of that is Organization XIII from KH, and I can also provide another example with the majority of Chrono Cross's cast. Having a lot of characters doesn't mean a lot when half or more of them are defined by a single character trait or recurring joke. It's another reason why, like I said before, "variety" isn't particularly relevant to how good or bad a group may be.