Windows 8 Compatibility

[Delsus]

I've been running Win8 since the Consumer Preview came out and now doing the Release Preview. I've seen some good improvements in terms of performance over 7 and a lot lower memory footprint overall. Base install also only too about 15 minutes from a USB key to an SSD.

In regards to gaming performance, it's really less about the OS and much more about the hardware drivers. I had some pretty major issues with the AMD driver release for CP. Going to the RP drivers fixed a lot of issues I had, especially with Eyefinity.

In terms of day to day use, I most of my computers have Win8 now. I use it at work and on two of my machines at home. Metro does take getting used to, and I'll admit there are some issues with mouse control, but they're not huge. I've gotten used to the changes and really like the polish that has been put on the RP.

With that said, Microsoft's target for a new OS aren't really people with existing hardware. The vast majority of computers that get upgraded are on the business side and much less in the consumer market. Most of the people who wind up with Win8 are the ones who buy new computers with it preloaded. I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot more touch-based hardware coming out this fall. Only Apple users really consistently plunk down the $100 (or whatever it is) every 2 years to get a new release of OSX.

Finally, it's a bit unfair to blame the poor performance of FFXIV (especially when it comes to the UAC prompt) on the OS. To me, that's just a lack of testing and lazy coding. Maybe it's something unavoidable, but how do other games get around it? If you really understand how UAC works, it's easier to appreciate what the purpose is. The "secure desktop" is actually a different user session than the standard desktop. Therefore, anything in that user session is completely separate from your standard login and mostly unreachable by malware or code of any type.

This seems to cause problems for XIV since it doesn't know how to deal with DirectX suddenly getting paused. I don't see this as a Windows problem, since the feature existed long before XIV came into play.

I have a MSDNAA account so I will probably install Win8 on my laptop when it is released, I have no idea how long I wil stay on it for, what I am saying is Microsoft think they know what users want, which is why its metro or gtfo, where as Linux offers loads of customisation options, from the changes compiz config manager can do (wobbly windows, window blur, desktop cube etc) all the way to a completly new desktop environment (KDE or gnome) this is what microsoft need to look at, people will say metro sucks, people will say they cannot use a touch based interface with a mouse etc MS could easily make everyone happy by offering the option of desktop or metro but the worse thing they could do is force us to use one.

If I pay £600+ for something I want to use it as I want, not how some money grabbing accountants want me to use,

As I said before I can see Win8 becoming a ME style failure because they are forcing us on something that is sub par.

Also I am not against MS, I just don't like being told how to use something, I like being able to cusomise things to work as I want, hense why I love linux so much, and the only reason I don't switch perminantly is just compatibility.

[indira]

That's cool w/ me... it'd be the best thing ever if game developers worldwide quit supporting DirectX and started supporting OpenGL so their games could run on Linux. >,<;;

problem with linux they would have to give out source code if they made any changes to things under the GPL, so they would have to give up there secrets. thats why they only stick to apple & MS

[Maneki]

I have a MSDNAA account so I will probably install Win8 on my laptop when it is released, I have no idea how long I wil stay on it for, what I am saying is Microsoft think they know what users want, which is why its metro or gtfo, where as Linux offers loads of customisation options, from the changes compiz config manager can do (wobbly windows, window blur, desktop cube etc) all the way to a completly new desktop environment (KDE or gnome) this is what microsoft need to look at, people will say metro sucks, people will say they cannot use a touch based interface with a mouse etc MS could easily make everyone happy by offering the option of desktop or metro but the worse thing they could do is force us to use one.

If I pay £600+ for something I want to use it as I want, not how some money grabbing accountants want me to use,

As I said before I can see Win8 becoming a ME style failure because they are forcing us on something that is sub par.

Also I am not against MS, I just don't like being told how to use something, I like being able to cusomise things to work as I want, hense why I love linux so much, and the only reason I don't switch perminantly is just compatibility.

From a business perspective, there's a lot that Win8 is trying to accomplish. There's a huge gap in the tablet market (that was largely pioneered by Microsoft before Apple came out with the iPad) that Microsoft needs to make up, and for better or for worse, Win8 is the answer. Yes, Win8 is geared towards touch-based devices. In a year or two, I'd venture to say the majority of consumer devices will have a touch screen. If Microsoft waits for that to happen (or isn't a part of that trend), then it'll be far too late to break into the market.

Yes, there's recognition of folks that like customization. However, for the majority of the market, people buy devices and never actually change anything about them. Not everyone can cater to everyone, just to the majority. If you like your customization, then stick with Win7 for now. I also don't see Metro (or a derivative) going away in future iterations of Windows.

[Alhanelem]

One of the Reasons for windows 8 Is to do away with the need for a hardware Bios. Which is something Google is trying to do with Chromium.

That's all well and good, but you don't need to screw around with a UI that's been working just fine for years in order to do that. Let desktops be desktops and let tablets and portable devices be those things. I'm not abandoning my mouse for touch input anytime soon.

[Alhanelem]

In a year or two, I'd venture to say the majority of consumer devices will have a touch screen.

It's going to be a LOT more than a "year or two" before everyone with a desktop PC has thrown away their perfectly good non-touchscreen monitor for a touch screen, and it will be even longer before that touch screen becomes a primary input device (if ever). Fingers are fat and clunky. You can't use touch input for anything that requires great precision.

There's a reason we've been using mice for 25+ years- it's a sound, well thought out and functional input device.

edit: sorry for doublepost

[Maneki]

It's going to be a LOT more than a "year or two" before everyone with a desktop PC has thrown away their perfectly good non-touchscreen monitor for a touch screen, and it will be even longer before that touch screen becomes a primary input device (if ever). Fingers are fat and clunky. You can't use touch input for anything that requires great precision.

There's a reason we've been using mice for 25+ years- it's a sound, well thought out and functional input device.

edit: sorry for doublepost

There's been a huge trend lately where people are moving away from traditional computers (especially in businesses). There's a large shift in the industry where people are bringing their own devices to work (largely iOS devices) and hooking them up to corporate networks. The phenomena is known as consumerization of IT and it's catching on quick. It's to the point where Microsoft is actually a bit threatened by this, as some businesses are considering throwing out the "traditional" PC all together. Granted, this isn't across all companies in all industries, but it certainly is an alarming trend.

The biggest worry for IT organizations today is the ability to secure and manage these devices. Right now, there aren't really any great solutions and the ones that are out there require a lot of implementation and administration. While this is less of an issue for the regular worker, how do you deal with your CEO's iPad if it gets lost? Do you have the ability to wipe the device remotely? How do you keep all that confidential information from falling into the wrong hands?

I agree with you, I don't see the keyboard and mouse going away any time soon for most applications. That's why Windows still works with a keyboard and mouse. There are certain parts that work better today than in the past (most notably the search functionality) that put much more emphasis to people using the keyboard. If you haven't already, I'd challenge you to switch over to Win8 in a production environment and use it every day for all the tasks you do now. You'd be surprised at how little the metro interface gets in your way.

I was never a huge user of the traditional start menu. Once Vista came around and I could just search for what I was trying to run, I almost never used the "all programs" section. I would just hit the windows key, start typing the name of the program, and hit enter to start it. Windows 8 hasn't changed that functionality, but also gives me a few new toys to play with and use (improved multi-monitor support, for example). Metro is there if I want it and need it, but I can easily ignore it if I don't.

I'm typing right now on a laptop running Win8 in desktop mode (no touch screen) on IE10. If I showed this to someone, they'd be hard pressed to tell it wasn't Win7, save for the missing start button.

We're at a point with touch technology where it's not an expensive add-on anymore. I'd venture to guess that a lot of the mid-range laptops coming out this fall will have touch screen capability. I'm looking forward to one in particular (the Lenovo Yoga) which will be in the $1k price range with ultra-book specs. A lot of all-in-one consumer PCs that are sold today already have touch screen monitors and they don't really have a huge premium over the non-touch counterparts. Sure, your $300 netbooks will still be non-touch, but I can see that changing as well.

[Delsus]

From a business perspective, there's a lot that Win8 is trying to accomplish. There's a huge gap in the tablet market (that was largely pioneered by Microsoft before Apple came out with the iPad) that Microsoft needs to make up, and for better or for worse, Win8 is the answer. Yes, Win8 is geared towards touch-based devices. In a year or two, I'd venture to say the majority of consumer devices will have a touch screen. If Microsoft waits for that to happen (or isn't a part of that trend), then it'll be far too late to break into the market.

Yes, there's recognition of folks that like customization. However, for the majority of the market, people buy devices and never actually change anything about them. Not everyone can cater to everyone, just to the majority. If you like your customization, then stick with Win7 for now. I also don't see Metro (or a derivative) going away in future iterations of Windows.

While I do agree PCs are moving towards touchscreens, MS has made it clear we are not allowed to use a desktop and start menu any more, they have sone this by desperately removing all the hacks to access the start menu, anyone with a sense of logic would offer both the desktop and UIs have metro as the default, people who either like it or don't want to change things around will stick (most people) but the people who like a desktop built around a keyboard and mouse can use it. Win8 on mobiles and tablets will succed (if MS can get companies to use them) Win8 on PC will fail, there was never anything wrong with the desktop why change it?

Also the thing is the good old keyboard and mouse will never go out because of gamers, there will always be a demand for things that work with a keyboard and mouse because people have been using them for 20-30 years now and are use to them, however if (and this is a big if) the mouse went completly obsolete then they switch to metro full time, but, for now, MS needs to give us a desktop or Win8 WILL fail no ifs or buts if people cannot use metro with a keyboard and mouse we will have Win9 in 2-3 years time.

I am not saying Win8 should not use metro, I am saying give us the option, then when touchscreen PCs are the norm they use metro only.

[Delsus]

There's been a huge trend lately where people are moving away from traditional computers (especially in businesses). There's a large shift in the industry where people are bringing their own devices to work (largely iOS devices) and hooking them up to corporate networks. The phenomena is known as consumerization of IT and it's catching on quick. It's to the point where Microsoft is actually a bit threatened by this, as some businesses are considering throwing out the "traditional" PC all together. Granted, this isn't across all companies in all industries, but it certainly is an alarming trend.

The biggest worry for IT organizations today is the ability to secure and manage these devices. Right now, there aren't really any great solutions and the ones that are out there require a lot of implementation and administration. While this is less of an issue for the regular worker, how do you deal with your CEO's iPad if it gets lost? Do you have the ability to wipe the device remotely? How do you keep all that confidential information from falling into the wrong hands?

I agree with you, I don't see the keyboard and mouse going away any time soon for most applications. That's why Windows still works with a keyboard and mouse. There are certain parts that work better today than in the past (most notably the search functionality) that put much more emphasis to people using the keyboard. If you haven't already, I'd challenge you to switch over to Win8 in a production environment and use it every day for all the tasks you do now. You'd be surprised at how little the metro interface gets in your way.

I was never a huge user of the traditional start menu. Once Vista came around and I could just search for what I was trying to run, I almost never used the "all programs" section. I would just hit the windows key, start typing the name of the program, and hit enter to start it. Windows 8 hasn't changed that functionality, but also gives me a few new toys to play with and use (improved multi-monitor support, for example). Metro is there if I want it and need it, but I can easily ignore it if I don't.

I'm typing right now on a laptop running Win8 in desktop mode (no touch screen) on IE10. If I showed this to someone, they'd be hard pressed to tell it wasn't Win7, save for the missing start button.

We're at a point with touch technology where it's not an expensive add-on anymore. I'd venture to guess that a lot of the mid-range laptops coming out this fall will have touch screen capability. I'm looking forward to one in particular (the Lenovo Yoga) which will be in the $1k price range with ultra-book specs. A lot of all-in-one consumer PCs that are sold today already have touch screen monitors and they don't really have a huge premium over the non-touch counterparts. Sure, your $300 netbooks will still be non-touch, but I can see that changing as well.

Coming from someone who has been educated in networking its very easy to prevent people bringing devices into work and hooking them up to the network, its called Network Access Protection, and it works very well to deny access on an un-managed device or if it you want you can set strict policies for connection it requires an initial setup and not much more, if someone needs a device connecting to a network they go through the admins.

Also I would be very cautious about this, laptops iPads etc can get stolen and the last thing you want is company data being stolen any company that allows this (and allows people to store company data on thier laptops) are asking to be sued, if I ran a network the only way people would be allowed to connect a laptop or PC which is unmanaged to the network is through a VPN and company data is not allowed to be stored on the staff member's device, all for security reasons.

[Alhanelem]

There's been a huge trend lately where people are moving away from traditional computers (especially in businesses). There's a large shift in the industry where people are bringing their own devices to work (largely iOS devices) and hooking them up to corporate networks. The phenomena is known as consumerization of IT and it's catching on quick. It's to the point where Microsoft is actually a bit threatened by this, as some businesses are considering throwing out the "traditional" PC all together. Granted, this isn't across all companies in all industries, but it certainly is an alarming trend.

I must be living under a pretty massive rock then, because I don't know one business within at least 50 miles of me that is doing this.

At work (retail) all of the managers have desktops in their offices, all of the vendors stocking shelves have laptops to order and track inventory, and there are no signs that this is changing. Even our registers are powered by Windows (lolz).

There is a simple fact that when you aren't forced to make everything as compact as possible, you can create more powerful hardware. Desktops will always be used in many industries because handheld touchscreen devices can not provide the same performance. This has been true for decades with laptops vs desktops, is true today with any laptop or desktop vs smart phones, and is true today with traditional desktops vs tablets.

The biggest worry for IT organizations today is the ability to secure and manage these devices. Right now, there aren't really any great solutions and the ones that are out there require a lot of implementation and administration. While this is less of an issue for the regular worker, how do you deal with your CEO's iPad if it gets lost? Do you have the ability to wipe the device remotely? How do you keep all that confidential information from falling into the wrong hands?

This is another reason why desktop hardware will never completely go away. It is no small part because desktops are not ultra-compact that they are more secure. It is easier to secure a building than a device that fits in the palm of your hand.

Microsoft can look to the future while recognizing that desktops are not going to die overnight or anytime soon, and retain the user interface that people are familiar with for desktop computers. Couldn't the OS easily detect the type of device it's being installed on and just configure the UI appropriately? And as I already said, tablets are by nature not practical for certain kinds of applications.

I will not pay $200 for windows 8 to power my desktop PC when it's going to be clearly inferior for my purposes.

[Maneki]

While I do agree PCs are moving towards touchscreens, MS has made it clear we are not allowed to use a desktop and start menu any more, they have sone this by desperately removing all the hacks to access the start menu, anyone with a sense of logic would offer both the desktop and UIs have metro as the default, people who either like it or don't want to change things around will stick (most people) but the people who like a desktop built around a keyboard and mouse can use it. Win8 on mobiles and tablets will succed (if MS can get companies to use them) Win8 on PC will fail, there was never anything wrong with the desktop why change it?

Also the thing is the good old keyboard and mouse will never go out because of gamers, there will always be a demand for things that work with a keyboard and mouse because people have been using them for 20-30 years now and are use to them, however if (and this is a big if) the mouse went completly obsolete then they switch to metro full time, but, for now, MS needs to give us a desktop or Win8 WILL fail no ifs or buts if people cannot use metro with a keyboard and mouse we will have Win9 in 2-3 years time.

I am not saying Win8 should not use metro, I am saying give us the option, then when touchscreen PCs are the norm they use metro only.

I really don't see Win8 as being the killer of the keyboard and mouse. My keyboard and mouse work just fine even with Metro. What I do see it representing as a shift in the way people think about the way they use their computers. To me, the last time Windows changed this much was from 3.11 to 95. Even the jump from XP to Vista/7 wasn't this large in terms of UI. Is this a good thing? Maybe, maybe not. Some people won't like the change, especially initially. A lot of people still don't like the look of the Office Ribbon, but many have grown to understand it and actually use it better than the old menus.

The problem I see with having the "classic" mode included is that you'll never be able to get rid of it. There was actually a huge uproar from the "old school" community when the classic start menu was removed from Windows Vista (or was it 7?) There will never be a good point to take out the legacy components, because someone will always say it's a bad idea. If it never happened, we'd still have the option of using a file manager sitting inside a program manager container and there wouldn't be a desktop.

Like I said, the keyboard and mouse aren't going away any time soon. Win8 is an attempt to blend the new tactile interfaces with the old. Maybe it's a little weird to most people at first, but give it some time. The touch-esque interfaces aren't going away and they'll be with us from here on out. At the same time, the keyboard and mouse are here to stay and will always continue to function. One of the best things about Microsoft OSes is that they don't really obsolete any existing technology, there's always though on how to integrate legacy components and keep them working with new releases. The people in Redmond aren't trying to do something drastic like kill off a processor architecture or force everyone to give up floppy disks and legacy ports. For that, you'd have to look at the folks in Cupertino.

I'd be curious to know though... What scenarios have you run into that don't work on Win8 (aside from not having the old start menu)?