Windows 8 Compatibility

[Maneki]

I've been running Win8 since the Consumer Preview came out and now doing the Release Preview. I've seen some good improvements in terms of performance over 7 and a lot lower memory footprint overall. Base install also only too about 15 minutes from a USB key to an SSD.

In regards to gaming performance, it's really less about the OS and much more about the hardware drivers. I had some pretty major issues with the AMD driver release for CP. Going to the RP drivers fixed a lot of issues I had, especially with Eyefinity.

In terms of day to day use, I most of my computers have Win8 now. I use it at work and on two of my machines at home. Metro does take getting used to, and I'll admit there are some issues with mouse control, but they're not huge. I've gotten used to the changes and really like the polish that has been put on the RP.

With that said, Microsoft's target for a new OS aren't really people with existing hardware. The vast majority of computers that get upgraded are on the business side and much less in the consumer market. Most of the people who wind up with Win8 are the ones who buy new computers with it preloaded. I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot more touch-based hardware coming out this fall. Only Apple users really consistently plunk down the $100 (or whatever it is) every 2 years to get a new release of OSX.

Finally, it's a bit unfair to blame the poor performance of FFXIV (especially when it comes to the UAC prompt) on the OS. To me, that's just a lack of testing and lazy coding. Maybe it's something unavoidable, but how do other games get around it? If you really understand how UAC works, it's easier to appreciate what the purpose is. The "secure desktop" is actually a different user session than the standard desktop. Therefore, anything in that user session is completely separate from your standard login and mostly unreachable by malware or code of any type.

This seems to cause problems for XIV since it doesn't know how to deal with DirectX suddenly getting paused. I don't see this as a Windows problem, since the feature existed long before XIV came into play.

[Delsus]

I've been running Win8 since the Consumer Preview came out and now doing the Release Preview. I've seen some good improvements in terms of performance over 7 and a lot lower memory footprint overall. Base install also only too about 15 minutes from a USB key to an SSD.

In regards to gaming performance, it's really less about the OS and much more about the hardware drivers. I had some pretty major issues with the AMD driver release for CP. Going to the RP drivers fixed a lot of issues I had, especially with Eyefinity.

In terms of day to day use, I most of my computers have Win8 now. I use it at work and on two of my machines at home. Metro does take getting used to, and I'll admit there are some issues with mouse control, but they're not huge. I've gotten used to the changes and really like the polish that has been put on the RP.

With that said, Microsoft's target for a new OS aren't really people with existing hardware. The vast majority of computers that get upgraded are on the business side and much less in the consumer market. Most of the people who wind up with Win8 are the ones who buy new computers with it preloaded. I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot more touch-based hardware coming out this fall. Only Apple users really consistently plunk down the $100 (or whatever it is) every 2 years to get a new release of OSX.

Finally, it's a bit unfair to blame the poor performance of FFXIV (especially when it comes to the UAC prompt) on the OS. To me, that's just a lack of testing and lazy coding. Maybe it's something unavoidable, but how do other games get around it? If you really understand how UAC works, it's easier to appreciate what the purpose is. The "secure desktop" is actually a different user session than the standard desktop. Therefore, anything in that user session is completely separate from your standard login and mostly unreachable by malware or code of any type.

This seems to cause problems for XIV since it doesn't know how to deal with DirectX suddenly getting paused. I don't see this as a Windows problem, since the feature existed long before XIV came into play.

I have a MSDNAA account so I will probably install Win8 on my laptop when it is released, I have no idea how long I wil stay on it for, what I am saying is Microsoft think they know what users want, which is why its metro or gtfo, where as Linux offers loads of customisation options, from the changes compiz config manager can do (wobbly windows, window blur, desktop cube etc) all the way to a completly new desktop environment (KDE or gnome) this is what microsoft need to look at, people will say metro sucks, people will say they cannot use a touch based interface with a mouse etc MS could easily make everyone happy by offering the option of desktop or metro but the worse thing they could do is force us to use one.

If I pay £600+ for something I want to use it as I want, not how some money grabbing accountants want me to use,

As I said before I can see Win8 becoming a ME style failure because they are forcing us on something that is sub par.

Also I am not against MS, I just don't like being told how to use something, I like being able to cusomise things to work as I want, hense why I love linux so much, and the only reason I don't switch perminantly is just compatibility.

[Maneki]

I have a MSDNAA account so I will probably install Win8 on my laptop when it is released, I have no idea how long I wil stay on it for, what I am saying is Microsoft think they know what users want, which is why its metro or gtfo, where as Linux offers loads of customisation options, from the changes compiz config manager can do (wobbly windows, window blur, desktop cube etc) all the way to a completly new desktop environment (KDE or gnome) this is what microsoft need to look at, people will say metro sucks, people will say they cannot use a touch based interface with a mouse etc MS could easily make everyone happy by offering the option of desktop or metro but the worse thing they could do is force us to use one.

If I pay £600+ for something I want to use it as I want, not how some money grabbing accountants want me to use,

As I said before I can see Win8 becoming a ME style failure because they are forcing us on something that is sub par.

Also I am not against MS, I just don't like being told how to use something, I like being able to cusomise things to work as I want, hense why I love linux so much, and the only reason I don't switch perminantly is just compatibility.

From a business perspective, there's a lot that Win8 is trying to accomplish. There's a huge gap in the tablet market (that was largely pioneered by Microsoft before Apple came out with the iPad) that Microsoft needs to make up, and for better or for worse, Win8 is the answer. Yes, Win8 is geared towards touch-based devices. In a year or two, I'd venture to say the majority of consumer devices will have a touch screen. If Microsoft waits for that to happen (or isn't a part of that trend), then it'll be far too late to break into the market.

Yes, there's recognition of folks that like customization. However, for the majority of the market, people buy devices and never actually change anything about them. Not everyone can cater to everyone, just to the majority. If you like your customization, then stick with Win7 for now. I also don't see Metro (or a derivative) going away in future iterations of Windows.

[Delsus]

From a business perspective, there's a lot that Win8 is trying to accomplish. There's a huge gap in the tablet market (that was largely pioneered by Microsoft before Apple came out with the iPad) that Microsoft needs to make up, and for better or for worse, Win8 is the answer. Yes, Win8 is geared towards touch-based devices. In a year or two, I'd venture to say the majority of consumer devices will have a touch screen. If Microsoft waits for that to happen (or isn't a part of that trend), then it'll be far too late to break into the market.

Yes, there's recognition of folks that like customization. However, for the majority of the market, people buy devices and never actually change anything about them. Not everyone can cater to everyone, just to the majority. If you like your customization, then stick with Win7 for now. I also don't see Metro (or a derivative) going away in future iterations of Windows.

While I do agree PCs are moving towards touchscreens, MS has made it clear we are not allowed to use a desktop and start menu any more, they have sone this by desperately removing all the hacks to access the start menu, anyone with a sense of logic would offer both the desktop and UIs have metro as the default, people who either like it or don't want to change things around will stick (most people) but the people who like a desktop built around a keyboard and mouse can use it. Win8 on mobiles and tablets will succed (if MS can get companies to use them) Win8 on PC will fail, there was never anything wrong with the desktop why change it?

Also the thing is the good old keyboard and mouse will never go out because of gamers, there will always be a demand for things that work with a keyboard and mouse because people have been using them for 20-30 years now and are use to them, however if (and this is a big if) the mouse went completly obsolete then they switch to metro full time, but, for now, MS needs to give us a desktop or Win8 WILL fail no ifs or buts if people cannot use metro with a keyboard and mouse we will have Win9 in 2-3 years time.

I am not saying Win8 should not use metro, I am saying give us the option, then when touchscreen PCs are the norm they use metro only.

[Maneki]

While I do agree PCs are moving towards touchscreens, MS has made it clear we are not allowed to use a desktop and start menu any more, they have sone this by desperately removing all the hacks to access the start menu, anyone with a sense of logic would offer both the desktop and UIs have metro as the default, people who either like it or don't want to change things around will stick (most people) but the people who like a desktop built around a keyboard and mouse can use it. Win8 on mobiles and tablets will succed (if MS can get companies to use them) Win8 on PC will fail, there was never anything wrong with the desktop why change it?

Also the thing is the good old keyboard and mouse will never go out because of gamers, there will always be a demand for things that work with a keyboard and mouse because people have been using them for 20-30 years now and are use to them, however if (and this is a big if) the mouse went completly obsolete then they switch to metro full time, but, for now, MS needs to give us a desktop or Win8 WILL fail no ifs or buts if people cannot use metro with a keyboard and mouse we will have Win9 in 2-3 years time.

I am not saying Win8 should not use metro, I am saying give us the option, then when touchscreen PCs are the norm they use metro only.

I really don't see Win8 as being the killer of the keyboard and mouse. My keyboard and mouse work just fine even with Metro. What I do see it representing as a shift in the way people think about the way they use their computers. To me, the last time Windows changed this much was from 3.11 to 95. Even the jump from XP to Vista/7 wasn't this large in terms of UI. Is this a good thing? Maybe, maybe not. Some people won't like the change, especially initially. A lot of people still don't like the look of the Office Ribbon, but many have grown to understand it and actually use it better than the old menus.

The problem I see with having the "classic" mode included is that you'll never be able to get rid of it. There was actually a huge uproar from the "old school" community when the classic start menu was removed from Windows Vista (or was it 7?) There will never be a good point to take out the legacy components, because someone will always say it's a bad idea. If it never happened, we'd still have the option of using a file manager sitting inside a program manager container and there wouldn't be a desktop.

Like I said, the keyboard and mouse aren't going away any time soon. Win8 is an attempt to blend the new tactile interfaces with the old. Maybe it's a little weird to most people at first, but give it some time. The touch-esque interfaces aren't going away and they'll be with us from here on out. At the same time, the keyboard and mouse are here to stay and will always continue to function. One of the best things about Microsoft OSes is that they don't really obsolete any existing technology, there's always though on how to integrate legacy components and keep them working with new releases. The people in Redmond aren't trying to do something drastic like kill off a processor architecture or force everyone to give up floppy disks and legacy ports. For that, you'd have to look at the folks in Cupertino.

I'd be curious to know though... What scenarios have you run into that don't work on Win8 (aside from not having the old start menu)?

[Delsus]

I really don't see Win8 as being the killer of the keyboard and mouse. My keyboard and mouse work just fine even with Metro. What I do see it representing as a shift in the way people think about the way they use their computers. To me, the last time Windows changed this much was from 3.11 to 95. Even the jump from XP to Vista/7 wasn't this large in terms of UI. Is this a good thing? Maybe, maybe not. Some people won't like the change, especially initially. A lot of people still don't like the look of the Office Ribbon, but many have grown to understand it and actually use it better than the old menus.

The problem I see with having the "classic" mode included is that you'll never be able to get rid of it. There was actually a huge uproar from the "old school" community when the classic start menu was removed from Windows Vista (or was it 7?) There will never be a good point to take out the legacy components, because someone will always say it's a bad idea. If it never happened, we'd still have the option of using a file manager sitting inside a program manager container and there wouldn't be a desktop.

Like I said, the keyboard and mouse aren't going away any time soon. Win8 is an attempt to blend the new tactile interfaces with the old. Maybe it's a little weird to most people at first, but give it some time. The touch-esque interfaces aren't going away and they'll be with us from here on out. At the same time, the keyboard and mouse are here to stay and will always continue to function. One of the best things about Microsoft OSes is that they don't really obsolete any existing technology, there's always though on how to integrate legacy components and keep them working with new releases. The people in Redmond aren't trying to do something drastic like kill off a processor architecture or force everyone to give up floppy disks and legacy ports. For that, you'd have to look at the folks in Cupertino.

I'd be curious to know though... What scenarios have you run into that don't work on Win8 (aside from not having the old start menu)?

The main thing is Metro is designed around touch and had to be adapted for the mouse, this leads to problems (which I also see in in Ubuntu's Unity) where the UI either doesn't recognise when a cursor has been moved to the side of the screen, so you have to keep trying, or you want to open an app near the edge of the screen and it moves over to the next or prevous page, this problem will never go away on anything designed for touch and worked around for a mouse, there will also be other problems, but I will admit I have only used the developer's preview of Win8 because I am on mobile broadband and need to wait a little before I download the release preview (which I will be doing asap) also one thing that really anoyed me in win8 developer preview was the only way I could find to properly close a metro app is to go to task manager and end it there, because there is no close buttons (tablets have a home and back button to close apps whereas this does not work with a keyboard and mouse, I want a big red X I can press to close something fast.

[Maneki]

I will admit I have only used the developer's preview of Win8 because I am on mobile broadband and need to wait a little before I download the release preview (which I will be doing asap) also one thing that really anoyed me in win8 developer preview was the only way I could find to properly close a metro app is to go to task manager and end it there, because there is no close buttons (tablets have a home and back button to close apps whereas this does not work with a keyboard and mouse, I want a big red X I can press to close something fast.

Yeah, the DP had a LOT of flaws when it came to the interface. I was running it on a side machine that was non-touch and it was very difficult to get around. The Developer Preview was just that, a preview version for developers to use and check out the new architecture. It wasn't meant for anyone to use outside of that context. Before you pass final judgment, I'd say give the Release Preview a try. It's almost a completely different experience than the DP and much more polished than the CP. If you're a developer, I'd liken the DP to an alpha release, the CP to beta, and RP to a release candidate.

Some of the other issues you mentioned might still be a problem, but they're much better tuned now than they were. One of the nice changes in the RP in terms of multi-monitor support is the ability to bring up the charms bar on any screen, not just the primary. Also, there are "sticky" corners regardless of which screen you're on, so you're not trying to find the hot spot without accidentally moving over to the other screen.

Also, apps in Win8 aren't really designed to be closed, since the resource management will now "sleep" anything that's not running in the foreground (much like on a phone). To actually close it, you click at the very top of the app and drag it to the bottom (like putting it away).

[Alhanelem]

A lot of people still don't like the look of the Office Ribbon, but many have grown to understand it and actually use it better than the old menus.

That's because it's a horrible, inefficient shiatty interface and I will continue to hate it as long as it exists. all the core applications that come with win7 now use the ribbon, and as a result I don't use any of them. They even ruined MS paint, an incredibly simple application, with this stupid interface. As for Office, I now use OpenOffice, which is nearly identical in functionality but keeps a useable, traditional interface.