Windows 8 Compatibility

[Alhanelem]

A lot of people still don't like the look of the Office Ribbon, but many have grown to understand it and actually use it better than the old menus.

That's because it's a horrible, inefficient shiatty interface and I will continue to hate it as long as it exists. all the core applications that come with win7 now use the ribbon, and as a result I don't use any of them. They even ruined MS paint, an incredibly simple application, with this stupid interface. As for Office, I now use OpenOffice, which is nearly identical in functionality but keeps a useable, traditional interface.

[Delsus]

I really don't see Win8 as being the killer of the keyboard and mouse. My keyboard and mouse work just fine even with Metro. What I do see it representing as a shift in the way people think about the way they use their computers. To me, the last time Windows changed this much was from 3.11 to 95. Even the jump from XP to Vista/7 wasn't this large in terms of UI. Is this a good thing? Maybe, maybe not. Some people won't like the change, especially initially. A lot of people still don't like the look of the Office Ribbon, but many have grown to understand it and actually use it better than the old menus.

The problem I see with having the "classic" mode included is that you'll never be able to get rid of it. There was actually a huge uproar from the "old school" community when the classic start menu was removed from Windows Vista (or was it 7?) There will never be a good point to take out the legacy components, because someone will always say it's a bad idea. If it never happened, we'd still have the option of using a file manager sitting inside a program manager container and there wouldn't be a desktop.

Like I said, the keyboard and mouse aren't going away any time soon. Win8 is an attempt to blend the new tactile interfaces with the old. Maybe it's a little weird to most people at first, but give it some time. The touch-esque interfaces aren't going away and they'll be with us from here on out. At the same time, the keyboard and mouse are here to stay and will always continue to function. One of the best things about Microsoft OSes is that they don't really obsolete any existing technology, there's always though on how to integrate legacy components and keep them working with new releases. The people in Redmond aren't trying to do something drastic like kill off a processor architecture or force everyone to give up floppy disks and legacy ports. For that, you'd have to look at the folks in Cupertino.

I'd be curious to know though... What scenarios have you run into that don't work on Win8 (aside from not having the old start menu)?

The main thing is Metro is designed around touch and had to be adapted for the mouse, this leads to problems (which I also see in in Ubuntu's Unity) where the UI either doesn't recognise when a cursor has been moved to the side of the screen, so you have to keep trying, or you want to open an app near the edge of the screen and it moves over to the next or prevous page, this problem will never go away on anything designed for touch and worked around for a mouse, there will also be other problems, but I will admit I have only used the developer's preview of Win8 because I am on mobile broadband and need to wait a little before I download the release preview (which I will be doing asap) also one thing that really anoyed me in win8 developer preview was the only way I could find to properly close a metro app is to go to task manager and end it there, because there is no close buttons (tablets have a home and back button to close apps whereas this does not work with a keyboard and mouse, I want a big red X I can press to close something fast.

[Maneki]

I must be living under a pretty massive rock then, because I don't know one business within at least 50 miles of me that is doing this.

At work (retail) all of the managers have desktops in their offices, all of the vendors stocking shelves have laptops to order and track inventory, and there are no signs that this is changing. Even our registers are powered by Windows (lolz).

My job involves working with IT admins at various business (some big, some small, and some recognizable). My portfolio has about 14 customers in it and ALL of them have some semblance of this occurring. They represent a wide variety of industries, ranging from retail to mechanical engineering firms to manufacturers. When the CxO comes in with his iPad (and more commonly iPhone) and says "make this work," the IT guy can't really say no. The people I work with are pretty much full Microsoft shops, with Windows Servers, Active Director, Exchange, SQL, etc. and they can fully manage any Windows based device that walks in the door.

Problems start happening when people start bringing things in. Sure, you can block access to the devices through corporate firewall and at the network level via MAC verification, but if the "big" boss comes to your office and says "I want my email on this new iPad," then you find a way to make it happen and start worrying about securing the one device. Once that precedent is set, then the floodgates have opened. The IT folks start bringing things in because they know how to make it work and eventually the helpdesk starts getting calls from all the desk workers wanting to hook up their devices so they can "better work remotely and away from the office." We already know how to secure Windows based laptops, but non-Windows devices are a completely different story. They weren't built with the business user in mind, but they're winding up in more and more peoples' bags when they travel.

In this scenario, the desktop never truly goes away, but people rely more and more on their handheld devices. Sure, they can't do everything with them (like do all the number crunching in Excel and stuff), but it'll do 90% of what they want. At some point, someone will figure out how to address these shortcomings and that will be the "next great thing." From a business perspective, Microsoft wants this platform to be Windows and not iOSx. As we all know, most people who buy an iOS device will not want to give it up.

The desktop PC isn't dead and Win8 is far from killing it. It works on both platforms and there may be some imperfections to the way it's implemented. Sure, there's an argument to whether or not it was a good implementation and you'll always find people on both sides of that argument. I guess the question is, are you going to stay stagnant and not change (while everyone changes around you) or move forward (and potentially shape the future of the industry?)

[Maneki]

I will admit I have only used the developer's preview of Win8 because I am on mobile broadband and need to wait a little before I download the release preview (which I will be doing asap) also one thing that really anoyed me in win8 developer preview was the only way I could find to properly close a metro app is to go to task manager and end it there, because there is no close buttons (tablets have a home and back button to close apps whereas this does not work with a keyboard and mouse, I want a big red X I can press to close something fast.

Yeah, the DP had a LOT of flaws when it came to the interface. I was running it on a side machine that was non-touch and it was very difficult to get around. The Developer Preview was just that, a preview version for developers to use and check out the new architecture. It wasn't meant for anyone to use outside of that context. Before you pass final judgment, I'd say give the Release Preview a try. It's almost a completely different experience than the DP and much more polished than the CP. If you're a developer, I'd liken the DP to an alpha release, the CP to beta, and RP to a release candidate.

Some of the other issues you mentioned might still be a problem, but they're much better tuned now than they were. One of the nice changes in the RP in terms of multi-monitor support is the ability to bring up the charms bar on any screen, not just the primary. Also, there are "sticky" corners regardless of which screen you're on, so you're not trying to find the hot spot without accidentally moving over to the other screen.

Also, apps in Win8 aren't really designed to be closed, since the resource management will now "sleep" anything that's not running in the foreground (much like on a phone). To actually close it, you click at the very top of the app and drag it to the bottom (like putting it away).

[Delsus]

My job involves working with IT admins at various business (some big, some small, and some recognizable). My portfolio has about 14 customers in it and ALL of them have some semblance of this occurring. They represent a wide variety of industries, ranging from retail to mechanical engineering firms to manufacturers. When the CxO comes in with his iPad (and more commonly iPhone) and says "make this work," the IT guy can't really say no. The people I work with are pretty much full Microsoft shops, with Windows Servers, Active Director, Exchange, SQL, etc. and they can fully manage any Windows based device that walks in the door.

Problems start happening when people start bringing things in. Sure, you can block access to the devices through corporate firewall and at the network level via MAC verification, but if the "big" boss comes to your office and says "I want my email on this new iPad," then you find a way to make it happen and start worrying about securing the one device. Once that precedent is set, then the floodgates have opened. The IT folks start bringing things in because they know how to make it work and eventually the helpdesk starts getting calls from all the desk workers wanting to hook up their devices so they can "better work remotely and away from the office." We already know how to secure Windows based laptops, but non-Windows devices are a completely different story. They weren't built with the business user in mind, but they're winding up in more and more peoples' bags when they travel.

In this scenario, the desktop never truly goes away, but people rely more and more on their handheld devices. Sure, they can't do everything with them (like do all the number crunching in Excel and stuff), but it'll do 90% of what they want. At some point, someone will figure out how to address these shortcomings and that will be the "next great thing." From a business perspective, Microsoft wants this platform to be Windows and not iOSx. As we all know, most people who buy an iOS device will not want to give it up.

The desktop PC isn't dead and Win8 is far from killing it. It works on both platforms and there may be some imperfections to the way it's implemented. Sure, there's an argument to whether or not it was a good implementation and you'll always find people on both sides of that argument. I guess the question is, are you going to stay stagnant and not change (while everyone changes around you) or move forward (and potentially shape the future of the industry?)

Even if the CEO comes in and wants something working you can tell him no and give reasons "its too insecure" "if it gets stolen YOU have to deal with the lawsuits for being in breach of the data protection act" (emphisize that one) etc etc or even "sorry our policies state that we cannot do that, we have procedures in place" if I was a network manager and someone did that even for the CEO they would be in the dole queue because they are putting company information at risk. The risks are even that great that companies tend to disable USB ports that arent needed incase a rogue employee attempts to steal database info (imagine how much cusomer info you can store on a 1TB external HDD) The IT department should never do this they are at risk, and if customers knew that data was at risk the company would go bust in no time.

[Delsus]

Yeah, the DP had a LOT of flaws when it came to the interface. I was running it on a side machine that was non-touch and it was very difficult to get around. The Developer Preview was just that, a preview version for developers to use and check out the new architecture. It wasn't meant for anyone to use outside of that context. Before you pass final judgment, I'd say give the Release Preview a try. It's almost a completely different experience than the DP and much more polished than the CP. If you're a developer, I'd liken the DP to an alpha release, the CP to beta, and RP to a release candidate.

Some of the other issues you mentioned might still be a problem, but they're much better tuned now than they were. One of the nice changes in the RP in terms of multi-monitor support is the ability to bring up the charms bar on any screen, not just the primary. Also, there are "sticky" corners regardless of which screen you're on, so you're not trying to find the hot spot without accidentally moving over to the other screen.

Also, apps in Win8 aren't really designed to be closed, since the resource management will now "sleep" anything that's not running in the foreground (much like on a phone). To actually close it, you click at the very top of the app and drag it to the bottom (like putting it away).

Seriously it sounds terrible, I will be trying the release preview out (hopefully back end of next week) but my expectations are epic fail at best also please tell me metro sorts apps into alphabetical order and not the order installed (like in dev preview) believe it or not I like things organised so I can find them

Half of using Win8 is going to be "do I move my mouse here, no, here, no, here WTF why has it just zoomed out" *pc through window* Just did some reading up and seriously none of what I read is even normal to think of, it seems like it could be even worse for laptop users and touchpads "Drag an app to the bottem of the screen to close it" what if the touchpad is small and won't go to the bottom of the screen in one? we will have apps open forever touchpads will have to be very sensetive to work with metro.

[Soukyuu]

UAC isn't really needed if you use common sense and don't browse unsafe pages or install cracked software. Besides, there are ways to avoid it and turn UAC off silently, unless they fixed it.

The issue with FFXIV crashing by losing focus is lazy coding, since the error message thrown is a default one when you don't handle the "device lost" exception.

Before someone says it's not possible with our current engine, it is, the very first windower for xiv managed giving ffxiv exclusive mode fullscreen (not borderless window as the later ones do and yes, there is a difference) via wrapping itself around ffxiv and handling this exception.

If a hack can provide the functionality without having access to the source code, but the devs can't then something is fishy.

problem with linux they would have to give out source code if they made any changes to things under the GPL, so they would have to give up there secrets. thats why they only stick to apple & MS

That isn't true. You are not forced to release the source code for a program, why do you think there are open source nvidia drivers and binary nvidia drivers?
SE could just provide a pre-compiled binary with an install script.

The real reason why no one bothers with linux is because the market share is too small to warrant support for it.

[Delsus]

UAC isn't really needed if you use common sense and don't browse unsafe pages or install cracked software. Besides, there are ways to avoid it and turn UAC off silently, unless they fixed it.

The issue with FFXIV crashing by losing focus is lazy coding, since the error message thrown is a default one when you don't handle the "device lost" exception.

Before someone says it's not possible with our current engine, it is, the very first windower for xiv managed giving ffxiv exclusive mode fullscreen (not borderless window as the later ones do and yes, there is a difference) via wrapping itself around ffxiv and handling this exception.

If a hack can provide the functionality without having access to the source code, but the devs can't then something is fishy.

That isn't true. You are not forced to release the source code for a program, why do you think there are open source nvidia drivers and binary nvidia drivers?
SE could just provide a pre-compiled binary with an install script.

The real reason why no one bothers with linux is because the market share is too small to warrant support for it.

The way UAC works is by taking a screenshot, it then suspends your session, then opens a new one for the UAC prompt then retuns to your session to perform the tasks (if you let it) this is the problem, SE have not coded FFXIV to work with the session being closed (if you want to see this run FFXIV on a laptop set the lid close action to sleep, close the lid, let it sleep then open it again, FFXIV will crash with the same error because the session has been suspended.

I however do agree with your linux comment, the ATI drivers are closed source and there are no problems, everything does not have to be open source on Linux, only the OS.

[Soukyuu]

The way UAC works is by taking a screenshot, it then suspends your session, then opens a new one for the UAC prompt then retuns to your session to perform the tasks (if you let it) this is the problem, SE have not coded FFXIV to work with the session being closed (if you want to see this run FFXIV on a laptop set the lid close action to sleep, close the lid, let it sleep then open it again, FFXIV will crash with the same error because the session has been suspended.

It's not about the session being closed, it's about losing the exclusive access to the DX device, that's what happens if you alt-tab or suspend the session, no matter which version of windows you are using.

In case something is interested, here's the the info about it and also how to solve it: click

It's just not a priority for SE in this client version.

[Alhanelem]

UAC isn't really needed if you use common sense and don't browse unsafe pages or install cracked software. Besides, there are ways to avoid it and turn UAC off silently, unless they fixed it.

They have fixed that, and turning of UAC is irresponsible even if you practice good security in all other areas. You should never ever be running ordinary programs with administrator privileges unless the program absolutely needs them. The only POSSIBLE exception is on a computer that is not and will never be connected to the internet.

UAC was terrible in windows vista, but in windows 7 it does its job much better and when configured properly, does it's job without being overly disruptive. Windows 7 drastically reduced the situations in which you are prompted for elevation by default. It should never be turned off completely unless there is absolutely no way to make a (mainly older) program work.

UAC is a feature added recently to windows that has existed in UNIX-based operating systems for years. With UAC turned off, you may as well post your administrator password on Facebook.

It's not about the session being closed, it's about losing the exclusive access to the DX device, that's what happens if you alt-tab or suspend the session, no matter which version of windows you are using.

Run the game in a full-screen sized window, and set UAC to not dim the desktop, and UAC will never crash the game. do this and alt tab will never crash the game either. It's not a 100% perfect solution because yes, you will still at least see part of the title bar, but that's a small price to pay for the ability to do those things.