Windows 8 Compatibility

[Maneki]

It's going to be a LOT more than a "year or two" before everyone with a desktop PC has thrown away their perfectly good non-touchscreen monitor for a touch screen, and it will be even longer before that touch screen becomes a primary input device (if ever). Fingers are fat and clunky. You can't use touch input for anything that requires great precision.

There's a reason we've been using mice for 25+ years- it's a sound, well thought out and functional input device.

edit: sorry for doublepost

There's been a huge trend lately where people are moving away from traditional computers (especially in businesses). There's a large shift in the industry where people are bringing their own devices to work (largely iOS devices) and hooking them up to corporate networks. The phenomena is known as consumerization of IT and it's catching on quick. It's to the point where Microsoft is actually a bit threatened by this, as some businesses are considering throwing out the "traditional" PC all together. Granted, this isn't across all companies in all industries, but it certainly is an alarming trend.

The biggest worry for IT organizations today is the ability to secure and manage these devices. Right now, there aren't really any great solutions and the ones that are out there require a lot of implementation and administration. While this is less of an issue for the regular worker, how do you deal with your CEO's iPad if it gets lost? Do you have the ability to wipe the device remotely? How do you keep all that confidential information from falling into the wrong hands?

I agree with you, I don't see the keyboard and mouse going away any time soon for most applications. That's why Windows still works with a keyboard and mouse. There are certain parts that work better today than in the past (most notably the search functionality) that put much more emphasis to people using the keyboard. If you haven't already, I'd challenge you to switch over to Win8 in a production environment and use it every day for all the tasks you do now. You'd be surprised at how little the metro interface gets in your way.

I was never a huge user of the traditional start menu. Once Vista came around and I could just search for what I was trying to run, I almost never used the "all programs" section. I would just hit the windows key, start typing the name of the program, and hit enter to start it. Windows 8 hasn't changed that functionality, but also gives me a few new toys to play with and use (improved multi-monitor support, for example). Metro is there if I want it and need it, but I can easily ignore it if I don't.

I'm typing right now on a laptop running Win8 in desktop mode (no touch screen) on IE10. If I showed this to someone, they'd be hard pressed to tell it wasn't Win7, save for the missing start button.

We're at a point with touch technology where it's not an expensive add-on anymore. I'd venture to guess that a lot of the mid-range laptops coming out this fall will have touch screen capability. I'm looking forward to one in particular (the Lenovo Yoga) which will be in the $1k price range with ultra-book specs. A lot of all-in-one consumer PCs that are sold today already have touch screen monitors and they don't really have a huge premium over the non-touch counterparts. Sure, your $300 netbooks will still be non-touch, but I can see that changing as well.

[Delsus]

There's been a huge trend lately where people are moving away from traditional computers (especially in businesses). There's a large shift in the industry where people are bringing their own devices to work (largely iOS devices) and hooking them up to corporate networks. The phenomena is known as consumerization of IT and it's catching on quick. It's to the point where Microsoft is actually a bit threatened by this, as some businesses are considering throwing out the "traditional" PC all together. Granted, this isn't across all companies in all industries, but it certainly is an alarming trend.

The biggest worry for IT organizations today is the ability to secure and manage these devices. Right now, there aren't really any great solutions and the ones that are out there require a lot of implementation and administration. While this is less of an issue for the regular worker, how do you deal with your CEO's iPad if it gets lost? Do you have the ability to wipe the device remotely? How do you keep all that confidential information from falling into the wrong hands?

I agree with you, I don't see the keyboard and mouse going away any time soon for most applications. That's why Windows still works with a keyboard and mouse. There are certain parts that work better today than in the past (most notably the search functionality) that put much more emphasis to people using the keyboard. If you haven't already, I'd challenge you to switch over to Win8 in a production environment and use it every day for all the tasks you do now. You'd be surprised at how little the metro interface gets in your way.

I was never a huge user of the traditional start menu. Once Vista came around and I could just search for what I was trying to run, I almost never used the "all programs" section. I would just hit the windows key, start typing the name of the program, and hit enter to start it. Windows 8 hasn't changed that functionality, but also gives me a few new toys to play with and use (improved multi-monitor support, for example). Metro is there if I want it and need it, but I can easily ignore it if I don't.

I'm typing right now on a laptop running Win8 in desktop mode (no touch screen) on IE10. If I showed this to someone, they'd be hard pressed to tell it wasn't Win7, save for the missing start button.

We're at a point with touch technology where it's not an expensive add-on anymore. I'd venture to guess that a lot of the mid-range laptops coming out this fall will have touch screen capability. I'm looking forward to one in particular (the Lenovo Yoga) which will be in the $1k price range with ultra-book specs. A lot of all-in-one consumer PCs that are sold today already have touch screen monitors and they don't really have a huge premium over the non-touch counterparts. Sure, your $300 netbooks will still be non-touch, but I can see that changing as well.

Coming from someone who has been educated in networking its very easy to prevent people bringing devices into work and hooking them up to the network, its called Network Access Protection, and it works very well to deny access on an un-managed device or if it you want you can set strict policies for connection it requires an initial setup and not much more, if someone needs a device connecting to a network they go through the admins.

Also I would be very cautious about this, laptops iPads etc can get stolen and the last thing you want is company data being stolen any company that allows this (and allows people to store company data on thier laptops) are asking to be sued, if I ran a network the only way people would be allowed to connect a laptop or PC which is unmanaged to the network is through a VPN and company data is not allowed to be stored on the staff member's device, all for security reasons.

[Alhanelem]

There's been a huge trend lately where people are moving away from traditional computers (especially in businesses). There's a large shift in the industry where people are bringing their own devices to work (largely iOS devices) and hooking them up to corporate networks. The phenomena is known as consumerization of IT and it's catching on quick. It's to the point where Microsoft is actually a bit threatened by this, as some businesses are considering throwing out the "traditional" PC all together. Granted, this isn't across all companies in all industries, but it certainly is an alarming trend.

I must be living under a pretty massive rock then, because I don't know one business within at least 50 miles of me that is doing this.

At work (retail) all of the managers have desktops in their offices, all of the vendors stocking shelves have laptops to order and track inventory, and there are no signs that this is changing. Even our registers are powered by Windows (lolz).

There is a simple fact that when you aren't forced to make everything as compact as possible, you can create more powerful hardware. Desktops will always be used in many industries because handheld touchscreen devices can not provide the same performance. This has been true for decades with laptops vs desktops, is true today with any laptop or desktop vs smart phones, and is true today with traditional desktops vs tablets.

The biggest worry for IT organizations today is the ability to secure and manage these devices. Right now, there aren't really any great solutions and the ones that are out there require a lot of implementation and administration. While this is less of an issue for the regular worker, how do you deal with your CEO's iPad if it gets lost? Do you have the ability to wipe the device remotely? How do you keep all that confidential information from falling into the wrong hands?

This is another reason why desktop hardware will never completely go away. It is no small part because desktops are not ultra-compact that they are more secure. It is easier to secure a building than a device that fits in the palm of your hand.

Microsoft can look to the future while recognizing that desktops are not going to die overnight or anytime soon, and retain the user interface that people are familiar with for desktop computers. Couldn't the OS easily detect the type of device it's being installed on and just configure the UI appropriately? And as I already said, tablets are by nature not practical for certain kinds of applications.

I will not pay $200 for windows 8 to power my desktop PC when it's going to be clearly inferior for my purposes.

[Maneki]

I must be living under a pretty massive rock then, because I don't know one business within at least 50 miles of me that is doing this.

At work (retail) all of the managers have desktops in their offices, all of the vendors stocking shelves have laptops to order and track inventory, and there are no signs that this is changing. Even our registers are powered by Windows (lolz).

My job involves working with IT admins at various business (some big, some small, and some recognizable). My portfolio has about 14 customers in it and ALL of them have some semblance of this occurring. They represent a wide variety of industries, ranging from retail to mechanical engineering firms to manufacturers. When the CxO comes in with his iPad (and more commonly iPhone) and says "make this work," the IT guy can't really say no. The people I work with are pretty much full Microsoft shops, with Windows Servers, Active Director, Exchange, SQL, etc. and they can fully manage any Windows based device that walks in the door.

Problems start happening when people start bringing things in. Sure, you can block access to the devices through corporate firewall and at the network level via MAC verification, but if the "big" boss comes to your office and says "I want my email on this new iPad," then you find a way to make it happen and start worrying about securing the one device. Once that precedent is set, then the floodgates have opened. The IT folks start bringing things in because they know how to make it work and eventually the helpdesk starts getting calls from all the desk workers wanting to hook up their devices so they can "better work remotely and away from the office." We already know how to secure Windows based laptops, but non-Windows devices are a completely different story. They weren't built with the business user in mind, but they're winding up in more and more peoples' bags when they travel.

In this scenario, the desktop never truly goes away, but people rely more and more on their handheld devices. Sure, they can't do everything with them (like do all the number crunching in Excel and stuff), but it'll do 90% of what they want. At some point, someone will figure out how to address these shortcomings and that will be the "next great thing." From a business perspective, Microsoft wants this platform to be Windows and not iOSx. As we all know, most people who buy an iOS device will not want to give it up.

The desktop PC isn't dead and Win8 is far from killing it. It works on both platforms and there may be some imperfections to the way it's implemented. Sure, there's an argument to whether or not it was a good implementation and you'll always find people on both sides of that argument. I guess the question is, are you going to stay stagnant and not change (while everyone changes around you) or move forward (and potentially shape the future of the industry?)

[Delsus]

My job involves working with IT admins at various business (some big, some small, and some recognizable). My portfolio has about 14 customers in it and ALL of them have some semblance of this occurring. They represent a wide variety of industries, ranging from retail to mechanical engineering firms to manufacturers. When the CxO comes in with his iPad (and more commonly iPhone) and says "make this work," the IT guy can't really say no. The people I work with are pretty much full Microsoft shops, with Windows Servers, Active Director, Exchange, SQL, etc. and they can fully manage any Windows based device that walks in the door.

Problems start happening when people start bringing things in. Sure, you can block access to the devices through corporate firewall and at the network level via MAC verification, but if the "big" boss comes to your office and says "I want my email on this new iPad," then you find a way to make it happen and start worrying about securing the one device. Once that precedent is set, then the floodgates have opened. The IT folks start bringing things in because they know how to make it work and eventually the helpdesk starts getting calls from all the desk workers wanting to hook up their devices so they can "better work remotely and away from the office." We already know how to secure Windows based laptops, but non-Windows devices are a completely different story. They weren't built with the business user in mind, but they're winding up in more and more peoples' bags when they travel.

In this scenario, the desktop never truly goes away, but people rely more and more on their handheld devices. Sure, they can't do everything with them (like do all the number crunching in Excel and stuff), but it'll do 90% of what they want. At some point, someone will figure out how to address these shortcomings and that will be the "next great thing." From a business perspective, Microsoft wants this platform to be Windows and not iOSx. As we all know, most people who buy an iOS device will not want to give it up.

The desktop PC isn't dead and Win8 is far from killing it. It works on both platforms and there may be some imperfections to the way it's implemented. Sure, there's an argument to whether or not it was a good implementation and you'll always find people on both sides of that argument. I guess the question is, are you going to stay stagnant and not change (while everyone changes around you) or move forward (and potentially shape the future of the industry?)

Even if the CEO comes in and wants something working you can tell him no and give reasons "its too insecure" "if it gets stolen YOU have to deal with the lawsuits for being in breach of the data protection act" (emphisize that one) etc etc or even "sorry our policies state that we cannot do that, we have procedures in place" if I was a network manager and someone did that even for the CEO they would be in the dole queue because they are putting company information at risk. The risks are even that great that companies tend to disable USB ports that arent needed incase a rogue employee attempts to steal database info (imagine how much cusomer info you can store on a 1TB external HDD) The IT department should never do this they are at risk, and if customers knew that data was at risk the company would go bust in no time.

[Soukyuu]

UAC isn't really needed if you use common sense and don't browse unsafe pages or install cracked software. Besides, there are ways to avoid it and turn UAC off silently, unless they fixed it.

The issue with FFXIV crashing by losing focus is lazy coding, since the error message thrown is a default one when you don't handle the "device lost" exception.

Before someone says it's not possible with our current engine, it is, the very first windower for xiv managed giving ffxiv exclusive mode fullscreen (not borderless window as the later ones do and yes, there is a difference) via wrapping itself around ffxiv and handling this exception.

If a hack can provide the functionality without having access to the source code, but the devs can't then something is fishy.

problem with linux they would have to give out source code if they made any changes to things under the GPL, so they would have to give up there secrets. thats why they only stick to apple & MS

That isn't true. You are not forced to release the source code for a program, why do you think there are open source nvidia drivers and binary nvidia drivers?
SE could just provide a pre-compiled binary with an install script.

The real reason why no one bothers with linux is because the market share is too small to warrant support for it.

[Delsus]

UAC isn't really needed if you use common sense and don't browse unsafe pages or install cracked software. Besides, there are ways to avoid it and turn UAC off silently, unless they fixed it.

The issue with FFXIV crashing by losing focus is lazy coding, since the error message thrown is a default one when you don't handle the "device lost" exception.

Before someone says it's not possible with our current engine, it is, the very first windower for xiv managed giving ffxiv exclusive mode fullscreen (not borderless window as the later ones do and yes, there is a difference) via wrapping itself around ffxiv and handling this exception.

If a hack can provide the functionality without having access to the source code, but the devs can't then something is fishy.

That isn't true. You are not forced to release the source code for a program, why do you think there are open source nvidia drivers and binary nvidia drivers?
SE could just provide a pre-compiled binary with an install script.

The real reason why no one bothers with linux is because the market share is too small to warrant support for it.

The way UAC works is by taking a screenshot, it then suspends your session, then opens a new one for the UAC prompt then retuns to your session to perform the tasks (if you let it) this is the problem, SE have not coded FFXIV to work with the session being closed (if you want to see this run FFXIV on a laptop set the lid close action to sleep, close the lid, let it sleep then open it again, FFXIV will crash with the same error because the session has been suspended.

I however do agree with your linux comment, the ATI drivers are closed source and there are no problems, everything does not have to be open source on Linux, only the OS.

[Soukyuu]

The way UAC works is by taking a screenshot, it then suspends your session, then opens a new one for the UAC prompt then retuns to your session to perform the tasks (if you let it) this is the problem, SE have not coded FFXIV to work with the session being closed (if you want to see this run FFXIV on a laptop set the lid close action to sleep, close the lid, let it sleep then open it again, FFXIV will crash with the same error because the session has been suspended.

It's not about the session being closed, it's about losing the exclusive access to the DX device, that's what happens if you alt-tab or suspend the session, no matter which version of windows you are using.

In case something is interested, here's the the info about it and also how to solve it: click

It's just not a priority for SE in this client version.

[Alhanelem]

UAC isn't really needed if you use common sense and don't browse unsafe pages or install cracked software. Besides, there are ways to avoid it and turn UAC off silently, unless they fixed it.

They have fixed that, and turning of UAC is irresponsible even if you practice good security in all other areas. You should never ever be running ordinary programs with administrator privileges unless the program absolutely needs them. The only POSSIBLE exception is on a computer that is not and will never be connected to the internet.

UAC was terrible in windows vista, but in windows 7 it does its job much better and when configured properly, does it's job without being overly disruptive. Windows 7 drastically reduced the situations in which you are prompted for elevation by default. It should never be turned off completely unless there is absolutely no way to make a (mainly older) program work.

UAC is a feature added recently to windows that has existed in UNIX-based operating systems for years. With UAC turned off, you may as well post your administrator password on Facebook.

It's not about the session being closed, it's about losing the exclusive access to the DX device, that's what happens if you alt-tab or suspend the session, no matter which version of windows you are using.

Run the game in a full-screen sized window, and set UAC to not dim the desktop, and UAC will never crash the game. do this and alt tab will never crash the game either. It's not a 100% perfect solution because yes, you will still at least see part of the title bar, but that's a small price to pay for the ability to do those things.

[Soukyuu]

They have fixed that, and turning of UAC is irresponsible even if you practice good security in all other areas. You should never ever be running ordinary programs with administrator privileges unless the program absolutely needs them. The only POSSIBLE exception is on a computer that is not and will never be connected to the internet.

UAC was terrible in windows vista, but in windows 7 it does its job much better and when configured properly, does it's job without being overly disruptive. Windows 7 drastically reduced the situations in which you are prompted for elevation by default. It should never be turned off completely unless there is absolutely no way to make a (mainly older) program work.

I am not going to be bothered by all the dual session problem that creep up, for example not being able to control a user level audio player via global hotkeys once you start a game that needs administrator privileges. What exactly is irresponsible about turning off UAC? Will some puppies die once I do that? My computers has been safe for over 10 years now and not once did I infect myself with anything malicious. Just use a decent antivirus.

With UAC turned off, you may as well post your administrator password on Facebook.

To be honest, using facebook has more risks than turning UAC off. At least you can turn it back on, with FB deleting info you once posted doesn't matter as they save it on their end anyway. This aside though, with people being behind a router with NAT on, there is little chance of someone accessing your PC directly.

It all comes down to your behavior. UAC is a safeguard for users not fully aware of what they are doing. You can view turning off UAC as irresponsible, I view it as taking the responsibility for whatever might happen and getting a more uninterrupted workflow as a result. And if I happen to come across some fishy executable, I have an antivirus and sandboxie.

Run the game in a full-screen sized window, and set UAC to not dim the desktop, and UAC will never crash the game. do this and alt tab will never crash the game either. It's not a 100% perfect solution because yes, you will still at least see part of the title bar, but that's a small price to pay for the ability to do those things.

You forgot the 5-10fps drop, depending on your graphics hardware and settings. Win7 (and I think Win8) only stops rendering the desktop and Aero if a program switches to exclusive mode.