To Tanks Who only pull One Mob at a Time......

[Tlamila]

oh yes thats true. people think dps jobs dont have any responsibilities, thats why they slack of. and saying something in that direction is the most evil thing to do. yet its such an important part.

And you notice the difference hugely in a run, when dps are good vs when they aren't, more than tank and healer being good. If packs melt like chocolate in the sun, you barely even need mitigation and heals at all.
You notice that in expert roulette, nvm the gear thing, but even at equal gear you notice how with people who knowtheir rotation sprint doesn't evencome off cd by the time your pull is dead and you run to the next pack. Imagine how much faster and smoother levelling dungeons would be with good dps.

[Merrigan]

This would be fine if the bar for tanking wasn't subterranean. Tanking is so easy I can explain how to do it for every tank right now. Put stance on, pop sprint before aggroing the first mob pack (optional), reach the wall, grabbing mobs on the way, and apply arm's length + reprisal. After 10 seconds, apply your 30% mitigation. After 10 seconds, apply your 10% mitigation. After 5 seconds, apply rampart. Use AoE abilities in between. That rotation is good enough to get you through a majority of w2w pulls without engaging with anything else and just relying on your healer to pick up the slack. It's not an issue of "Why aren't they as good as me?!" It's an issue of, "The developers have been intentionally making this role easier and easier for the last 2 expansions, how are we still having these issues?"

This post is a typical example of "why simplifying a job was never a good idea, and why over-simplification makes you less lax about mistakes".

That said: you are playing with humans. Not bots. That's why we keep having these problems, and there's nothing else to understand. Agree to be a little flexible. Being a good player isn't just, as you just pointed out, knowing how to organise your mitigations. That part is simple. What is less simple is adapting to players you have just met. The tank is more of an optimizer than a common punching bag (which is why I actually find your description very poor).

On a personal note, the ones that piss me off the most are the people who are so buried in their "wall-to-wall" mentality that they end up causing wipes. In fact, some are so convinced of this religion that they don't even ask the question "why is the tank slowing down here". Small reference to a group I met yesterday, on my alt, where a dps thought it was a good idea to pull more when I had no CDs left. The same dps, of course, who was doing mold damage and forcing me to slam more on each pack, because the mobs weren't melting fast enough.

I'm seeing more and more of that these days - and they're rarely the best players. Which doesn't surprise me at all. They're also the most common, because in reality players who pull a pack by a pack are rare in the higher levels, despite all the complaining about it.

[game_enjoyer]

This post is a typical example of "why simplifying a job was never a good idea, and why over-simplification makes you less lax about mistakes".

That said: you are playing with humans. Not bots. That's why we keep having these problems, and there's nothing else to understand. Agree to be a little flexible. Being a good player isn't just, as you just pointed out, knowing how to organise your mitigations. That part is simple. What is less simple is adapting to players you have just met. The tank is more of an optimizer than a common punching bag (which is why I actually find your description very poor).

On a personal note, the ones that piss me off the most are the people who are so buried in their "wall-to-wall" mentality that they end up causing wipes. In fact, some are so convinced of this religion that they don't even ask the question "why is the tank slowing down here". Small reference to a group I met yesterday, on my alt, where a dps thought it was a good idea to pull more when I had no CDs left. The same dps, of course, who was doing mold damage and forcing me to slam more on each pack, because the mobs weren't melting fast enough.

I'm seeing more and more of that these days - and they're rarely the best players. Which doesn't surprise me at all. They're also the most common, because in reality players who pull a pack by a pack are rare in the higher levels, despite all the complaining about it.

if u can't pull w2w post 50 that's just u being bad and nothing to do with anyone else

[JacobNewblood]

While it can be slow, tanks run the show.

While it can be slow, tanks run the show, but oh no, healer mana is looking low, DPS is low, or things are dying slow, and I can't go no moe, and our Cooldowns are a no-show.
Do I really set the pace? Or must I embrace, that this is a team race. and we all have a place, in setting the pace.
For there is no puller, only those with lifebars fuller, whom's we must delete before we are beat.
who will last? if we wipe, it will be in the past. if we win, we can raise our chins,
we all set the pace, for it's not one person's place.

[hagare]

While it can be slow, tanks run the show, but oh no, healer mana is looking low, DPS is low, or things are dying slow, and I can't go no moe, and our Cooldowns are a no-show.
Do I really set the pace? Or must I embrace, that this is a team race. and we all have a place, in setting the pace.
For there is no puller, only those with lifebars fuller, whom's we must delete before we are beat.
who will last? if we wipe, it will be in the past. if we win, we can raise our chins,
we all set the pace, for it's not one person's place.

if this happens even with the tank only pulling single packs, what do you think pulling more packs would do?
You can't even deal with one. Tank made the right call on this case xD

[LeonKeyh]

While it can be slow, tanks run the show.

Found the YPYT.

-snip off topic wrong arguments-
...and yes...

"I can play this game with my eyes closed, drunk, with both hands tied behind my back. And this random dude can't even pull two packs?!?!"

Insanity, folks. Think about it.

Tanking 1 group or 2 groups or 10 groups in a dungeon DOES NOT CHANGE WHAT YOU DO AS A TANK. Activate mitigations, use AoEs. If there's 2 mobs or 20 that's what you're doing. The more mobs you grab the EASIER it is for EVERYONE. If I hit Rampart with 20 mobs hitting me, it is 10 TIMES more powerful (i.e. mitigating 10 times the damage) than if I hit it with 2 mobs hitting me. If all of the part members are AE 20 mobs, those abilities are 10 times more powerful than whenever you have 2 mobs.

Stop acting like grabbing more mobs makes it more difficult to hit that 2 button AoE combo for some reason. The ONLY person that has a significantly more difficult time is the healer.

if this happens even with the tank only pulling single packs, what do you think pulling more packs would do?
You can't even deal with one. Tank made the right call on this case xD

Not at all. Pulling single packs means that your party stays in combat more often which means that the healer's mana won't regenerate fast enough. Healers don't run out of mana because they have to heal, they run out of mana because of long fight times. Even if DPS are shit, pulling 2 groups is still going to be better than 1.

[Striker44]

Not at all. Pulling single packs means that your party stays in combat more often which means that the healer's mana won't regenerate fast enough. Healers don't run out of mana because they have to heal, they run out of mana because of long fight times. Even if DPS are shit, pulling 2 groups is still going to be better than 1.

Honestly, if we're talking standard dungeons, a healer running out of mana means they're still learning how to use their toolkit. Either they're spamming high-mana heals unnecessarily instead of using more efficient spells, or they're not using their mana regen ability/abilities, or both. The length of any given fight is irrelevant for someone with a good idea of how their toolkit works, since they won't run out anyway.

[TaleraRistain]

Honestly, if we're talking standard dungeons, a healer running out of mana means they're still learning how to use their toolkit. Either they're spamming high-mana heals unnecessarily instead of using more efficient spells, or they're not using their mana regen ability/abilities, or both. The length of any given fight is irrelevant for someone with a good idea of how their toolkit works, since they won't run out anyway.

The problem with large pulls that take a while to burn down isn't MP so much as running out of CDs. Especially if we already had to use some when the tank stopped to equalize things. I think the person you quoted doesn't realize that with small packs, less CDs are used and usually less MP because we don't have to heal that much unless the team is struggling on the smaller pulls. I think my worst time as a healer is when a tank pulls big, dps is very low, and both the tank and I run out of CDs. It's better in my experience to pull small in those situations. If there's the trifecta of a squishy tank, even moreso.

[Izar_Chillen]

The problem with large pulls that take a while to burn down isn't MP so much as running out of CDs. Especially if we already had to use some when the tank stopped to equalize things. I think the person you quoted doesn't realize that with small packs, less CDs are used and usually less MP because we don't have to heal that much unless the team is struggling on the smaller pulls. I think my worst time as a healer is when a tank pulls big, dps is very low, and both the tank and I run out of CDs. It's better in my experience to pull small in those situations. If there's the trifecta of a squishy tank, even moreso.

I think thats why there are barriers/ gates in the games dungeon design now . Its the perfect amount you can pull that works well with cooldowns for the majority. Its not over the top that "most" people cant handle and it stops over zealous tanks over pulling because they expect anyone they encounter to be used to it , it reduces the cooldown burn out from under performing dps from making fights go on to long and reduces careless healers running out of mana that over heal when they didnt need to .



typically



Thats not to say none of the above ever happen stil, but Id imagine that they looked at average performances and the min maxers and took a design choice to allow 2-3 packs at most before a gate blocks any further traversal until they are killed , and of course its much easier to decide on the HP pools and damage output when they know the max that can be in combat with gating.



I like pulling big on my warrior , the blood whetting and crit aoe damage style almost calls for it as small pulls on a warrior kills a tonne of its performance but if there were no gates in dungeons these days it almost certainly would cause issues with under performers or those that dont care if people cant handle massive pulls and go ahead anyways regardless of others , both are bad situations on the normal content