Revert summoner to 5.55 while re-reworking it please?

**Baxcel** · 07-15-2022 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Can we please stop bringing up Miasma and Bio until Necromancer becomes a thing. Of all the spells and mechanics those are the absolute least likely to ever return.

I feel like pointing out that YoshiP said 2 jobs would for sure never be open to the WoL as they are to "evil" in his opinion.
Those jobs being Thief and Necromancer.

**aveyond-dreams** · 07-15-2022 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Baxcel

I feel like pointing out that YoshiP said 2 jobs would for sure never be open to the WoL as they are to "evil" in his opinion.
Those jobs being Thief and Necromancer.

Ok so explain Reaper.

**Ibbers** · 07-15-2022 02:14 PM

I don’t understand what people mean when they said old SMN was a mess or that it had individual parts that didn’t work together. That’s current SMN. Aetherflow and Fester don’t interact with anything. Your Primal phases have no impact on your demi phases. Your raid buff isn’t tied to any other job system anymore (RIP Carbuncle). Everything with current SMN feels like a disjointed, silo’d system.

ShB SMN had many systems that worked with each other. Your stack management during filler affected your Bahamut phase. You conveniently needed 2 ruin stacks to enkindle Bahamut and 2 stacks to finish Bahamut phase without Swiftcast for a total of 4. Oh will you look at that, you can stack up to 4 further ruins, the exact number you need. DWT gives you the weave windows needed to summon Bahamut as well as get pet CDs out of the way. Phoenix needs a stack to weave the summon, but it doesn’t spend stacks itself so it doesn’t need DWT. Don’t need to move? Short cooldown Aetherflow and Fester still had a purpose by burning your stacks anyway. The CD of trances and DWT working the way it did made trance rushing optimal for most encounters, but you could still hold Phoenix for 10s if needed while new SMN is forced to demi almost on cooldown due to the poor implementation of the gem system, leading to jank like doing filler inside raid buffs in P2S. And so on.

Old SMN was unintuitive, sure. That’s a valid criticism. But it wasn’t disjointed and it wasn’t a mess. It had systems that interacted and worked well with each other. From a gameplay and rotation point of view, there is no meaningful difference between not being able to chain certain pet actions and not being able to press 132 instead of 123 of your melee combo.

That being said, I understand the egis were not appealing to a lot of people. I think there is merit in making a more intuitive job. I’m actually OK with the removal of 5.5 SMN.

I just think we should have gotten a much better-designed, more involved, less unfinished/half-baked rework. I do not think the current demi implementation and gem charges system is good design or a ‘good base to build upon’. This argument is a fallacious whataboutism about old SMN. The primal phases of new SMN are too similar, short and inconsequential, the rotation is excessively rigid due to tying nearly everything to summoning a demi, there’s no interaction between the primal phases or the demi phase, the demi phases are completely devoid of mechanics and so on. The current system is too heavily flawed to be used as a base.

**Baxcel** · 07-15-2022 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Ok so explain Reaper.

Reapers ain't evil tho, they are a form of combat for a magically lacking people to fight against magic by forming a contract with a voidsent. A voidsent isn't exactly evil they're just starving and willing to do anything for Aether.

Now Thiefs I don't agree with him about being evil and Rouge should of upgraded into it with Ninja having its own job.

But you can't tell me that Nerco isn't evil, messing with the bodies of the dead is very evil. Plus If they ever did decide to add Necro they'd have to never give a skeleton summon or make multiple skins for it as China bans any game with skeletons being featured. (They usually get reskinned to Zombies)

**aveyond-dreams** · 07-15-2022 02:36 PM

Ok so give Necromancer the ability to summon zombies in China and let other players have a cool dark themed caster. I don't care for arguments based on good or evil. People don't always want to play a "good" character.

**Duskane** · 07-15-2022 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Ok so explain Reaper.

Reapers are not an inherently evil concept
literally just uber driver for souls of the dead

**Manamaru** · 07-15-2022 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by Dahlinea

Best option the devs can take in 7.0 is delete SMN as normal job, recreate it as a limited job and add all the summons and their "unique" skills in all kinds and variations possible to please those that want more summons. Then replace normal job SMN spot with a totally new caster.

What you're thinking of is a different class entirely, like Beast Master, and the ability to "summon" the beasts and have their abilities be incorporated ontop of being a limited job to join BLU in order for it to reach peak potential. Would also revitalize the pet mechanic in there as well. Would we ever get something like that? Maybe 8 years from now.

No, the SMN we have today is the one that Squenix intended and wanted to include, as well as kill the pet mechanic on it to bring the "Summon monster to do 1 big attack and then tell the SMN they need to go buy milk and disappears for a while" as some have argued wanting of it being "asthetic to Final Fantasy". I would actually be in favor if they just split the Arcanist/Scholar jobs entirely, made them independent, and made SMN carry a sack of stones to summon, since that seems to be where the idea and aesthetic is headed. With that in mind, including Shiva, Leviathan, and Ramuh won't just be enough. More will need to be included and added as options into the rotation. Leviathan, Shiva, and Ramuh phases will be a good inclusion into either bahamut or phoenix phase, but they should be included sooner and give SMN players leveling from 26-90 something to look forward to.

**Baxcel** · 07-15-2022 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Ok so give Necromancer the ability to summon zombies in China and let other players have a cool dark themed caster. I don't care for arguments based on good or evil. People don't always want to play a "good" character.

That's fine, but YoshiP, the director of this game said no. I'm not arguing for or against it just saying what he said and that was "its not happening"

**Shurrikhan** · 07-15-2022 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by fulminating

largely stems from its aesthetics or "as long as you have hands" gameplay.

This constraint seems excessive.

Do with that claim what you will.

______________

More seriously:

At this point, I don't think a revert is a viable choice, even if the devs had no hesitation against it. However, neither is keeping SMN as Fisher-Price as it is now.

That's not to say that, past the obfuscation, 5.55 SMN was actually that much more complex, merely that it was a step above enough not to feel awful/unfinished. This downgrade is most noticeable now across the 30-89 experience, with even 90 feeling significantly more barebone than 70-80 had before Endwalker. That should in no way be acceptable.

**Shurrikhan** · 07-15-2022 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Baxcel

I feel like pointing out that YoshiP said 2 jobs would for sure never be open to the WoL as they are to "evil" in his opinion.
Those jobs being Thief and Necromancer.

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Ok so explain Reaper.

Soul-stealing is fine. It's not (typically) exchangeable for monetary value.

And as long as they've been disfigured enough from the collapse of their shard, it's not really bringing people back from (un)death when you summon voidsent.

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