Building a better Alphinaud

[aveyond-dreams]

Except that is absolutely not the case given that there are characters like Estinien and Ardbert who aren't nearly as grating or overt as Alphinaud.

[CrownySuccubus]

Except that is absolutely not the case given that there are characters like Estinien and Ardbert who aren't nearly as grating or overt as Alphinaud.

They are absolutely just as preachy. Whether or not one is more "grating" than another is a personal opinion.

[Raven2014]

Every character in FFXIV is preachy. Even the villains. Hell, there's a certain MEME that starts with "Tell me, whom do you fight?"

Alphinaud can't be singled out for a trait that every single character with any sort of philosophy has.

Yeah, he must had forgotten the MSQ dungeon in lvl-roullete before the redesign, several Garleans characters essentially gave sermons about their world view, Gaius even gave several. Everyone favorite Ascian delivered one sermon per zone when he was accompanying you, and several at the end.

To paraphrase someone else in this thread -- if I need more cynical, "realist" worldviews, I can walk outside my door and talk to a politician. I don't play videogames to see cold, shallow reflections of the real world. I want to see worlds and people who dare to make something better.

The argument that "Silly rabbit, idealism is for kids" is, in my opinion, complete nonsense. If anything, what's more of a teenager belief is completely moral relativity. That's just lazy, because even in the real world, sometimes people (and their ideology) are just wrong.

It's psychology. Cynicism is something you pick up with the age after experience life for what it is. It's a "negative" words that most actual old people will get piss off if you call them cynical because it's taken as a demeaning accusation. Yet, I have seen young people (teenage or young adult in their 20s) actually embrace it and call themselves cynical because they think it makes them look mature and wise above their age ... I have seen so many teenage buff their chest "I'm just cynical ok?" as if it's a good thing when I just shake my head "you haven't lived long enough to be cynical yet".

[Raven2014]

I thought the Garlemald section was extremely strong for its stark illustration of how horrifying and powerful that nationalistic indoctrination is on people, and for achieving a very compelling balance between recognizing the humanity of its civilian population and showing compassion, while not excusing their greater nation's atrocities or anyone's inclinations to make excuses for it.

I agree, if anything I think it's the best zone story in EW, and they pulled all the stop. It's one that constantly surprised me with the outcome. The storyline at the hamlet started out innocently enough, I thought it will be another "feel good" quest, didn't expect it ended up with 2 graves and the scion questioned whether if it was a mistake to reach out and help people. Than you have the first legion story, which is supposed to be the best Garlemald have to offer ... and it ended with the commander putting a bullet in his own head.

[IkaraGreydancer]

You can make benevolent heroes that aren't nearly as preachy as Alphinaud and should especially consider doing it given the age of the playerbase. I couldn't stand Alphinaud as a teenager when I first started playing. The years have not made me view him any better. Evolve and adapt.

Evolve and adapt could be said to you as well tbf

[Rulakir]

To paraphrase someone else in this thread -- if I need more cynical, "realist" worldviews, I can walk outside my door and talk to a politician. I don't play videogames to see cold, shallow reflections of the real world. I want to see worlds and people who dare to make something better.

I don't think I could fundamentally disagree with a post more. Since when are politicians realists? What a bizarre thing to say. Also, we were shown a world and people who made something better. They were torn apart by an ideologue that the game lauds as a heroine and laughably held up as "what not to do" despite the fact that the entire supposed purpose of the protagonists is about reducing suffering and trying to make a better world for everyone. Are we the baddies now?

The argument that "Silly rabbit, idealism is for kids" is, in my opinion, complete nonsense.

Black and white morality, a group of protagonists who always win, never suffer setbacks or losses, don't question their beliefs/values because they're inherently 'right', enemies who are utterly defeated with a moral message at the end, do you know what that is? It's literally Saturday Morning Cartoon crap. You can think it's complete nonsense all you like, but it's a programming formula for small children despite FFXIV being rated Teen (at least in the US). It's almost ironic the phrasing you chose for this statement is a slogan from a kid's cereal.

[CrownySuccubus]

I don't think I could fundamentally disagree with a post more. Since when are politicians realists? What a bizarre thing to say.

....Is the term "Realpolitik" new to you?

Also, real life, modern career politicians are probably the definition of "realists", in terms of someone who is concerned with the here and now instead of wide-eyed ideals. The only thing they really care about is winning elections, acquiring and maintaining power, and keeping campaign money coming in. They certainly won't toe too far out of party lines at the risk of losing its support.

Also, we were shown a world and people who made something better. They were torn apart by an ideologue that the game lauds as a heroine and laughably held up as "what not to do" despite the fact that the entire supposed purpose of the protagonists is about reducing suffering and trying to make a better world for everyone. Are we the baddies now?

In the context of the current game timeline, that's irrelevant. I dislike Venat's logic as much as anyone, but the point of our discussion was The Source as it exists now. Even if we object to how we got here, and the game's attempts to justify it, its relevance on modern Source politics is already a bridge that's been burned.

Black and white morality, a group of protagonists who always win, never suffer setbacks or losses, don't question their beliefs/values because they're inherently 'right', enemies who are utterly defeated with a moral message at the end, do you know what that is? It's literally Saturday Morning Cartoon crap. You can think it's complete nonsense all you like, but it's a programming formula for small children despite FFXIV being rated Teen (at least in the US).

As Brinne said, do I think the WOL and the Scions could stand to be challenged more on various points? Sure. Do I think there should be more tangible consequences and less plot armor? You betcha.

But do I think the overall morality, as presented, is "Black and White" and thus "for kids"? Absolutely not. As has already been said, Garlemald's MSQ quests were pretty well-done in terms of moral ambiguity and grayness. There were no easy answers and no correct answers.

But "no easy answers and no correct answers" is not the same thing as "no wrong answers". The existence of complicated, nuanced problems in the world (or a fictional world) does not change the argument that some people are just villains and some ideologies are just wrong. Personally, I'd find a plot in which the bloodthirsty, fascist, theocratic, dictators are just poor misguided souls who need to hear Talk-no-Jutsu to stop being bad more unrealistic. Some people simply do NOT want to engage or want to live and die by the sword.

It's almost ironic the phrasing you chose for this statement is a slogan from a kid's cereal.

It's actually from TV Tropes, who like to make puns.

[Brinne]

re: cynicism and idealism, for me, the "sweet spot" would be not compromising how grim and harsh reality is, and how people are - and depicting it starkly - and then considering "all right, so what should we do about it?" and coming to an answer informed by kindness - still, without looking away from that the kindness in and of itself doesn't guarantee any better results.

"Depicting the harshness of reality" is why In From The Cold was so effective to me - those poor Garlean soldiers hyping themselves up and being good people, risking themselves to help you, saying the "right words" about how if they work together, they can get through this - and then all being casually slaughtered anyway. This is what happens. This is what a lot of traumatized people carry. Bad things happen to good people for absolutely no reason, and looking away from that and denying that, softening that, is irresponsible and harmful.

But I like the response to that to skew more idealistic - to suggest that it is possible to others to stop looking away, and encourage compassion and empathy. To still be able to find glimmers of light in a fundamentally meaningless world. As I've said, Endwalker came so close to nailing a message that's incredibly dear to me, and then whiffed so horrifically I ended up utterly repulsed instead (at least in terms of the primary thrust of the MSQ - some of the side content captures it well.) Shadowbringers, in terms of acknowledging the tragic, unfair horror of the conflict between the Unsundered and the Sundered, and the senseless, horrific, wrong, fate of the Ancients - and then encouraging compassion, even if you can't fundamentally change the situation and the stakes - was close to perfect for me.

This is another part of why Garlemald's storyline worked for me as well. The twins failed, in ugly ways, and people died senselessly as a result. Sometimes people will choose death rather than help. A mind immersed in propaganda is often excruciatingly hard to deprogram, let alone with being psychologically comforting, reassuring their targets that "you're the real victim here, always." The twins reel from the impact of that and how they misunderstood, and have to think about how they respond - which is ultimately, that they still want to help, even if these people hate them for it.

Do I think the twins overall, and this process, could have done with more elaboration and nuance, in an ideal world? Yes, of course. I would have loved to see more active personal struggle instead of a couple scenes of quiet reflection. But for what it is, and given the limitations of the story structure, I appreciated it.

[GrizzlyTank]

In hindsight the Betinaud upgrade was inadequate.

He has thus been updated to the better tested Gamminaud!