Building a better Alphinaud

[Rulakir]

To paraphrase someone else in this thread -- if I need more cynical, "realist" worldviews, I can walk outside my door and talk to a politician. I don't play videogames to see cold, shallow reflections of the real world. I want to see worlds and people who dare to make something better.

I don't think I could fundamentally disagree with a post more. Since when are politicians realists? What a bizarre thing to say. Also, we were shown a world and people who made something better. They were torn apart by an ideologue that the game lauds as a heroine and laughably held up as "what not to do" despite the fact that the entire supposed purpose of the protagonists is about reducing suffering and trying to make a better world for everyone. Are we the baddies now?

The argument that "Silly rabbit, idealism is for kids" is, in my opinion, complete nonsense.

Black and white morality, a group of protagonists who always win, never suffer setbacks or losses, don't question their beliefs/values because they're inherently 'right', enemies who are utterly defeated with a moral message at the end, do you know what that is? It's literally Saturday Morning Cartoon crap. You can think it's complete nonsense all you like, but it's a programming formula for small children despite FFXIV being rated Teen (at least in the US). It's almost ironic the phrasing you chose for this statement is a slogan from a kid's cereal.

[CrownySuccubus]

I don't think I could fundamentally disagree with a post more. Since when are politicians realists? What a bizarre thing to say.

....Is the term "Realpolitik" new to you?

Also, real life, modern career politicians are probably the definition of "realists", in terms of someone who is concerned with the here and now instead of wide-eyed ideals. The only thing they really care about is winning elections, acquiring and maintaining power, and keeping campaign money coming in. They certainly won't toe too far out of party lines at the risk of losing its support.

Also, we were shown a world and people who made something better. They were torn apart by an ideologue that the game lauds as a heroine and laughably held up as "what not to do" despite the fact that the entire supposed purpose of the protagonists is about reducing suffering and trying to make a better world for everyone. Are we the baddies now?

In the context of the current game timeline, that's irrelevant. I dislike Venat's logic as much as anyone, but the point of our discussion was The Source as it exists now. Even if we object to how we got here, and the game's attempts to justify it, its relevance on modern Source politics is already a bridge that's been burned.

Black and white morality, a group of protagonists who always win, never suffer setbacks or losses, don't question their beliefs/values because they're inherently 'right', enemies who are utterly defeated with a moral message at the end, do you know what that is? It's literally Saturday Morning Cartoon crap. You can think it's complete nonsense all you like, but it's a programming formula for small children despite FFXIV being rated Teen (at least in the US).

As Brinne said, do I think the WOL and the Scions could stand to be challenged more on various points? Sure. Do I think there should be more tangible consequences and less plot armor? You betcha.

But do I think the overall morality, as presented, is "Black and White" and thus "for kids"? Absolutely not. As has already been said, Garlemald's MSQ quests were pretty well-done in terms of moral ambiguity and grayness. There were no easy answers and no correct answers.

But "no easy answers and no correct answers" is not the same thing as "no wrong answers". The existence of complicated, nuanced problems in the world (or a fictional world) does not change the argument that some people are just villains and some ideologies are just wrong. Personally, I'd find a plot in which the bloodthirsty, fascist, theocratic, dictators are just poor misguided souls who need to hear Talk-no-Jutsu to stop being bad more unrealistic. Some people simply do NOT want to engage or want to live and die by the sword.

It's almost ironic the phrasing you chose for this statement is a slogan from a kid's cereal.

It's actually from TV Tropes, who like to make puns.

[Raven2014]

I thought the Garlemald section was extremely strong for its stark illustration of how horrifying and powerful that nationalistic indoctrination is on people, and for achieving a very compelling balance between recognizing the humanity of its civilian population and showing compassion, while not excusing their greater nation's atrocities or anyone's inclinations to make excuses for it.

I agree, if anything I think it's the best zone story in EW, and they pulled all the stop. It's one that constantly surprised me with the outcome. The storyline at the hamlet started out innocently enough, I thought it will be another "feel good" quest, didn't expect it ended up with 2 graves and the scion questioned whether if it was a mistake to reach out and help people. Than you have the first legion story, which is supposed to be the best Garlemald have to offer ... and it ended with the commander putting a bullet in his own head.

[Sarkany]

Zenos was old enough that it's kind of odd he didn't have a wife or kids, given that all his ancestors back to Solus seem to have been married and reproducing at about 20. Someone claiming to be his secret girlfriend/wife who had his baby would be hard to disprove. Given what we know of Zenos, someone showing up claiming to be the mother of his baby who he was hiding from Varis would seem very unlikely, but I suspect they could sell it to at least some of the Garlean populace. If they wanted to get a member of the royal family (or at least someone who claimed to be part of the royal family) back on the throne, Zenos's Secret Baby would probably be the most effective strategy. Of course, then you sink into the political quicksand of figuring out who the regent ought to be until the kid's old enough to actually govern (Zenos is 26, he can't possibly have a child who's old enough to be running a country), whether this is actually Zenos's kid, what this should mean for the woman, and so on.

[Carin-Eri]

Zenos was old enough that it's kind of odd he didn't have a wife or kids, given that all his ancestors back to Solus seem to have been married and reproducing at about 20. Someone claiming to be his secret girlfriend/wife who had his baby would be hard to disprove. Given what we know of Zenos, someone showing up claiming to be the mother of his baby who he was hiding from Varis would seem very unlikely, but I suspect they could sell it to at least some of the Garlean populace. If they wanted to get a member of the royal family (or at least someone who claimed to be part of the royal family) back on the throne, Zenos's Secret Baby would probably be the most effective strategy. Of course, then you sink into the political quicksand of figuring out who the regent ought to be until the kid's old enough to actually govern (Zenos is 26, he can't possibly have a child who's old enough to be running a country), whether this is actually Zenos's kid, what this should mean for the woman, and so on.

At one point I did wonder whether he had his sights on Fordola....

[aveyond-dreams]

You can make benevolent heroes that aren't nearly as preachy as Alphinaud and should especially consider doing it given the age of the playerbase. I couldn't stand Alphinaud as a teenager when I first started playing. The years have not made me view him any better. Evolve and adapt.

[CrownySuccubus]

You can make benevolent heroes that aren't nearly as preachy as Alphinaud and should especially consider doing it given the age of the playerbase. I couldn't stand Alphinaud as a teenager when I first started playing. The years have not made me view him any better. Evolve and adapt.

Every character in FFXIV is preachy. Even the villains. Hell, there's a certain MEME that starts with "Tell me, for whom do you fight?"

Alphinaud can't be singled out for a trait that every single character with any sort of philosophy has.

[IkaraGreydancer]

You can make benevolent heroes that aren't nearly as preachy as Alphinaud and should especially consider doing it given the age of the playerbase. I couldn't stand Alphinaud as a teenager when I first started playing. The years have not made me view him any better. Evolve and adapt.

Evolve and adapt could be said to you as well tbf

[aveyond-dreams]

Except that is absolutely not the case given that there are characters like Estinien and Ardbert who aren't nearly as grating or overt as Alphinaud.

[CrownySuccubus]

Except that is absolutely not the case given that there are characters like Estinien and Ardbert who aren't nearly as grating or overt as Alphinaud.

They are absolutely just as preachy. Whether or not one is more "grating" than another is a personal opinion.