Why are Ranged DPS so unfun to play?

[Payotz]

It's literally not, though. Benefits to mobility, benefits to mitigation, and benefits to MP are all going to handle differently based on how much need there is for their given benefit. You may as well say that Benediction works just like Edge of Shadow; they are each differently constrained by situation.

Sure, different utility applies to different situations. That sounds right.

The problem is that any situation that causes bonus MP to be useful in modern XIV is going to be far more constrained than benefits to mobility or, especially, mitigation.

No. Benefits to mobility and mitigation can be as "constraining" as bonus MP to modern XIV.

Mitigation needs only save even a single heal, or prevent a single death, to have value.

Sure, but it can be constrained when you have sevaral different party busters that deal 100k hp unmitigated happen one after the other 10 seconds apart, or if there's 180k tank busters that you have to invuln and kitchen sink one after the other. Mitigation is already "constrained" in DSR. You miss a mit, and you die, especially in P6, and you know what that's okay, but it proves that Mitigation can be as constrained if the fight design is designed around it.

Mobility needs only do the same or grant further uptime.

Can be constrained by making sure that you have to pop sprint to go to a position OR to make it so that you have very limited wiggle room and that you have to run immediately to a spot.
This is literally light and dark beacons at the start of Perfect Alexander and Wroth Flames in P6. Yes, mobility can also be constrained.

MP, on the other hand, requires that at least one MP user would otherwise have been locked out of a portion of their kit.

Just like how if you miss a mit you die, you don't move correctly you die, this is the punishment for not saving Refresh for when you need it.
You can make any one aspect a "constraint" in an encounter, it just depends on the fight design. It's not applicable to only Refresh, it's applicable to pretty much everything.

In the cases it matters, that's more akin to the fight silencing and pacifying all but a single sub-role, and that sub-role being uniquely able to cleanse the silence/pacify.

Just like Icelit Dragonsong and TEA esunas, Tank and Physical Ranged silences and even Tank and Melee stuns?

To bring fights to the point that, as you put it, "healers are forced to go OOM" if not for Refresh... is to bring baseline gameplay way down just so you can give it back via a Physical Ranged. That is holding gameplay hostage with no actual net benefit. At best, gameplay is returned to the new dependents, back to, at most, exactly what they had before. That is not good design.

It's design that revolves around a specific utility, so yes it is good design.
It's kinda like how you need a tanks cooldowns to mitigate raidwides.
How you need a shield healer to actually mitigate raidwides and tankbusters.
A caster to addle specific magical party busters or tank busters.

You are dependent on the utility dps for utility, and thus you take one of the jobs in the utility dps role for their utility.
Sounds good to me.

Adjust how MP works, so it's not merely a bimodal between whether one is or is not, in effect, silenced and pacified, and then it can actually be decent.

If this isn't FF14 I would agree that a bimodal function can actually work in this game, but unfortunately it doesn't.
FF14 lives and dies on binary checks. You do the mechanic? You live. One of you fucks up the mechanic? You wipe.
You mitigate the tankbuster? Good you live. You don't mitigate the tank buster? Oh you die, and the next tankbuster is gonna cleave the party.

Like there's even times where if you make a mistake and live, but get hit with a damage down, it's all over. You'd have to wipe because you won't be able to do the dps check to see the next phase.
Hell even the basic AoE is binary. You sit in an AoE, you get one shot and die. In WoW, you sit in an AoE, you take significant amounts of damage, but there's no damage down or vuln up, and you simply get healed up by the healer.

Give the MP granting ability more nuance than just being "hit on CD" and at least Physical Ranged would be getting something out of the deal beyond feeding some sort of "Ahh, yes, their ability to perform basic functions comes at my pleasure," but that is not Refresh. Refresh was literally Lucid Dreaming, but at twice the CD and affecting all (effectively two) allies. (Holy Shock is a dps loss outside of its fixed Req, DRKs would instantly be made immune to MP restoration again, BLMs are already and always have been immune to it in Astral Fire, you're not going to time it to a single rare Umbral speed-transition tick, SMNs no longer care about MP beyond their rez meter, same as RDMs.)

They don't need to get something out of the deal. Divine Benison shield being broken isn't gonna give WHM a lily. Excog healing a tank from below 25% hp isn't gonna give SCH a proc that guarantees crits for 5 seconds.
Refresh is fine it makes sure you actually don't wipe and clear the content. You're contributing to the clear that's not the 1% raid dps buff that everyone is already contributing by existing, and that's more than enough payback to play a utility dps.

Yes, which has nothing to do with there being Refresh.

Refresh can be a solution to it. Requiring more GCD healing means more chances of the healers going OOM, which is alleviated by the fact that Refresh is a thing.
If you want more GCD healing to happen, then there needs to be more sources of mana regeneration that will alleviate OOM.
Enter, Refresh.


Also this is funny:

Devs: "Fights shouldn't be won or lost over healers healing enough. They shouldn't need to use oGCDs atop GCDs outside of very rare scenarios. Yes, this may mean that MP goes largely untouched and that there's far less downtime, so to compensate we'll be further reducing the penalty of taking rez-capable DPS and nerfing maximum healer DPS."
RefreshBackPlease: "But, what if I gave healers more MP?"

You have this scenario, when I literally offered you a solution in the last post:

The problem with the implementation of true heal checks in this game is that it's literally lined up with your cooldowns going off cooldown.
They're spaced perfectly apart from one another that you already have full mana, full OGCDs and cooldowns, and ready for the next true heal check.

You want more healing in this game? Bring those moments of heal checks closer. That's it.

If you Akh morn one after the other, then eventually you'll have even your AST go OOM, necessiating a Refresh.

Then it's effectively passive and would exist only to worsen healer play in the offchance you want to play with 7 friends, none of whom want to play Physical Ranged.

What part of "you're already obligated to play physical ranged today" do you not understand?
I wanna play with my 7 friends but none of them wanna play Tank. Boo hoo.
I wanna play with my 7 friends but none of them wanna play Healer. Boo hoo.
I wanna play with my 7 friends but none of them wanna play Melee. Boo Hoo.
I wanna play with my 7 friends but none of them wanna play Caster Boo Hoo.
I wanna play with my 7 friends but none of them wanna play Physical Ranged. Boo Hoo.

What are you doing trying to clear an on patch minimum ilvl Savage raid with no echo Week 1 with 7 DPS and a PLD?
Casual content that's has no healing, mitigation and dps check is that way. Unsynced Savage Raids with Echo are at the end of the hallway.

That there's little to no GCD healing required is not an oversight; it is by design. Fights were changed to match that design, with E12S and certain parts of DSR being considered the oversights in how much healing they still required.

Leading for healers to actually press their Glare button 70% of the time rather than their heal button.
Healers now have nothing to do. Hell you can solo heal with no Refresh and just lucid because of that design.

Again, want more healing?

... Bring those moments of heal checks closer. That's it.

And if you did somehow necessitate Refresh, you've effectively only gone to "Take me or wipe automatically due to your healers being, effectively, silenced." Again, I must ask, how is that good design?[/LIST]

You. Are. Already. Obligated. To. Play. Physical. Ranged. Today. Because. Of. The. 1%. Party. DPS.
The. DPS. Checks. In. High. End. Raids. Are. Tuned. Around. That. 1%. Party. Dps. Buff.

So nothing will change. You're still obligated to bring a Physical Ranged here. Only this time, you bring them because of a 1% Party DPS buff AND their utility.
Cementing their identity as the Utility DPS. Making them bring more than one thing to the table.

Just like the tanks, and their ability to well tank.
Just like the healers, and their ability to well heal.
Just like the casters, and their ability to LB3 or for addle, raise or good ranged damage.
Just like the melee, and their ability to LB3, or for Feint, and good melee damage.

I've argued literally only against giving them raidwide Lucid Dreaming, as per Refresh. I'd likewise argue against giving them raidwide Invigorate and forcing everyone back onto TP if that were likewise done for the express purpose of making teams more dependent on Physical Ranged.

We are all already dependent on Physical Ranged. That's the point.
We can't possibly be even more dependent on Physical Ranged, because we NEED Physical Ranged in High End Content because the dps checks are tuned with it in mind.

Man, I really feel like I'm just repeating my point here over and over again.

[Shurrikhan]

We are all already dependent on Physical Ranged.

No. We are not. We are mildly, mildly incentivized to take at least one Physical Ranged, just as per Melee and Casters, so that the devs can pretend the roles are more closely balanced. We are not dependent on having at least one of each.

You have this scenario, when I literally offered you a solution in the last post:

Your "solution" was to increasing healing requirements, something the devs have explicitly said they will not do.

Moving healing checks "closer" together to require more healing output from healers is still increasing healing requirements. There's no subtle loophole in the devs wanting to make the healing part of playing healers easier.

Again, want more healing?

I do. But I'm not the devs, who don't.

You. Are. Already. Obligated. To. Play. Physical. Ranged. Today. Because. Of. The. 1%. Party. DPS.

1% damage bonus (that may or may not even be a net increase to party throughput give the better alternatives).

Vs.

Automatic party wipe in most serious content upon reaching X heal-check.

Do those... seem equivalent to you?


Imagine what you're asking for from any of the either sub-roles:

• Take at least one Melee or lose access to A after X time. In practice, this means you will eventually, inevitably wipe for most Savage fights.
• Take at least one Caster or lose access to B after X time. In practice, this means you will eventually, inevitably wipe for most Savage fights.

What you are asking for is the same as if you were arguing that Melee should all be constrained by TP again, just so whether they can actually use their weaponskills after a given point in a fight will depend on you. Hard pass.

We can't possibly be even more dependent on Physical Ranged, because we NEED Physical Ranged in High End Content because the dps checks are tuned with it in mind.

So, per your earlier comments...

'tight parity doesn't matter because any composition can clear anything anyways'...

yet, somehow... at the same time...

most parties will clear or wipe on the basis of the 1% Damage bonus of having taken a Physical Ranged (despite that being far less, or even a net negative, in practice, given how much more strongly other jobs will perform).

Tell me, how do those two things go together?

[Payotz]

Your "solution" was to increasing healing requirements, something the devs have explicitly said they will not do.

Moving healing checks "closer" together to require more healing output from healers is still increasing healing requirements. There's no subtle loophole in the devs wanting to make the healing part of playing healers easier.

They've also said that they're never gonna go back to 4.0 design, where Ranged Physicals have utility, the very thing we want.
But that doesn't stop us from posting our feedback that we want that.
Just like how healers are demanding either more dps buttons or more healing requirements.

1% damage bonus (that may or may not even be a net increase to party throughput give the better alternatives).
Vs.
Automatic party wipe in most serious content upon reaching X heal-check.

When we're already required to take a Physical Ranged, it's not the former OR the latter, it's former AND the latter.

No. We are not. We are mildly, mildly incentivized to take at least one Physical Ranged, just as per Melee and Casters, so that the devs can pretend the roles are more closely balanced. We are not dependent on having at least one of each.

Tell me you don't do High End Content without telling me you don't do High End Content.

High End Content has always been tuned against the 1% damage bonus. It IS that huge because it's literally a party buff that's present at -ALL- times.
It's literally an extra 242k damage in P4S P2 for literally just existing. It's literally an EXTRA melee LB3.. for no reason other than having a Physical Ranged in the party. It's literally an extra percent on the boss' hp bar GONE for having a Ranged Physical be in the party in an evironment where people wipe to 0.1% hp often at enrage.
OF COURSE it's going to be tuned around it.

So, per your earlier comments tight parity doesn't matter because anyone composition can clear anything anyways...
but... at the same time...
somehow the less than 1% rDPS bonus (sometimes still a net negative, given how much more strongly other jobs will perform) will, for all parties, make the difference between clearing a fight and dying to enrage.

Any job within a single role can clear content yes. You just have to bring every role, just like you have to bring a tank, a healer, a melee dps, a ranged physical and a acaster.

I didn't say any composition. I said every job within a role can clear. Don't put words in my mouth.

Why are you being this disingenous? What's next in the argument? You should be able to clear Savage Content with all tanks?

I need to reply to your EDITS:

Take at least one Melee or lose access to A after X time. In practice, this means you will eventually, inevitably wipe for most Savage fights.

Yes that is the case. You don't have access to Melee LB 3 and its 1% party dps if you don't have a Melee.

Take at least one Caster or lose access to B after X time. In practice, this means you will eventually, inevitably wipe for most Savage fights.

Yes that is the case. You don't have access to Addle and the 1% damage bonus if you don't have a caster.

All these scenarios are already TRUE in the game for High End Content, especially in an Ultimate.

What you are asking for is the same as if you were arguing that Melee should all be constrained by TP again, just so whether they can actually use their weaponskills after a given point in a fight will depend on you. Hard pass.

Except... Mana is still here, and it's still used by casters. So why not abuse that fact by adding more utility to ranged physicals?

Like this whole conversation started with me suggesting it as a recovery button, then you replied that there's no reason to press it, so I added a reason to press it, now you're screaming because now there's a reason to press it, so I go back to suggesting it as a recovery button, and then you're going back to it being a boring button.

You're really hell bent against this idea when I've already proven that it can work, that there are solid scenarios where it can work. Stop being disingenuous.

[Shurrikhan]

High End Content has always been tuned against the 1% damage bonus. It IS that huge because it's literally a party buff that's present at -ALL- times.
It's literally an extra 242k damage in P4S P2 for literally just existing. It's literally an EXTRA melee LB3.

You know what else does that in P4S? The players' own ~8% rDPS increase for having taken, say, a BLM instead of a Physical Ranged.

"Ahh, but there are 8 people, so it's the same!" Except, each DPS makes up more than an 8th the total damage. A typical BLM in a conventional 2-tank, 2 healer 1 melee, 1 ranged, 1 caster, 1 any party will be doing nearer to 16% of the whole.
0.16 * .8 > .01.

The underperformance of Physical Ranged is largely shored up by the 1% damage increase, yes, but it's certainly not enough to make Physical Ranged obligatory.

<You'd already be guaranteed to wipe without Addle and the 1% Caster buff>

Addle does no more mitigation than is supplied by the +/-5% attached to every damage event.

But here, since Addle was enough to save people from an otherwise guaranteed wipe, I should see, at least once where Addle was used, people surviving by a hair within the various Ultimate logs, no?

Wait... no, that... isn't happening. No non-tank ever dropped below 15% from raidwide damage. It's not even saving a tank, who only drop below 25% during invulns. Nor sparing a heal, for that matter.

And... they're clearing with over a minute to spare. Hmm. Odd, that.

They've also said that they're never gonna go back to 4.0 design, where Ranged Physicals have utility, the very thing we want.
But that doesn't stop us from posting our feedback that we want that.
Just like how healers are demanding either more dps buttons or more healing requirements.

The problem is wanting to hold other players' kit access hostage by wanting utility-whose-only-benefit-is-sustained-kit-access now, when there is no context by which it'd be anything more than removing X to let someone else give it back. Which, if feedback since Stormblood hadn't made clear, is not a popular design choice.

• Do I want more Physical Ranged utility? Absolutely.
• Do I want more to do as a tank? Absolutely.
• Do I want higher healing requirements? Absolutely.

But that doesn't make it good idea to want healers to be dependent on my Refresh in the current environment. And no matter what, a bimodal functionality like current MP isn't a good place for that added utility, especially if isn't to be paired with fine control or some manner of exploitability prior to going OOM.

Put MP costs on healing abilities, have the potency and costs of MP spenders scale with current %MP, and voila, now Rangers' granting MP no longer requires healers to otherwise lose access to their spells after X time for it to have value, because there is actually something available for trade, rather than just "Can cast / Can't cast."

From there you have an actual context where MP utility feels like a bonus, rather than a fetter purposely added just to be removed again (purposely desyncing all raid damage from healer cooldowns or by whatever other means forcing healers to need it or face inevitable wipes because it constrains their literal ability to cast spells at all).

Like this whole conversation started with me suggesting it as a recovery button, then you replied that there's no reason to press it, so I added a reason to press it, now you're screaming because now there's a reason to press it, so I go back to suggesting it as a recovery button, and then you're going back to it being a boring button.

Your "added a reason to press it" required that every serious fight in the game be changed to realign damage intervals to make healers' abilities unusable over heal checks... just to further tax MP via AoE spells... just to then make Ranged more obligatory for being able to give that MP back. You are requiring an absurd number of hoops there just to, ultimately, try to make healing dependent on Physical Ranged.

And yet, at the end of all that, that dependence doesn't add a mechanic beyond your hitting your raidwide Lucid Dreaming on CD.

[Payotz]

You know what else does that in P4S? The players' own ~8% rDPS increase for having taken, say, a BLM instead of a Physical Ranged.

"Ahh, but there are 8 people, so it's the same!" Except, each DPS makes up more than an 8th the total damage. A typical BLM in a conventional 2-tank, 2 healer 1 melee, 1 ranged, 1 caster, 1 any party will be doing nearer to 16% of the whole.
0.16 * .8 > .01.

The underperformance of Physical Ranged is largely shored up by the 1% damage increase, yes, but it's certainly not enough to make Physical Ranged obligatory.

Alright I just went ahead and fact checked on the Balance and other sources for you to really make sure that I know what I'm talking about.
Week 5 you can just run whatever you want, which makes sense because everyone has full gear, and there's more vit and stats going around to trivialize any dps check and any damage going out. Sure it's whatever. You can literally go in with One Tank, One Healer, and 6 dps and it wouldn't really matter at that point.

But if you don't have gear in Savage and in DSR, you can't just drop the Physical Ranged because Party Bonus is both 1% DPS AND 1% HP, meaning that's more of a risk to dying to a high roll raid wide even under mitigation.

Two BLMs that is perfectly optimized will not beat a Physical Ranged bonus, but they get extremely close, so yes technically they beat the dps check with two BLMS. HOWEVER, that's if they're playing perfect, which is not 100% of the time, and also extremely fight dependent.

The problem with this approach is that you will still die to raidwides without that 1% hp (which is correct as there are times where I die to 500 hp overkill during a raidwide in DSR) if you aren't overgearing the content. Which means that even though you can still get very close (but not surpass) the physical ranged +1% party bonus, you'll still have to drop the 1% hp and the 10% party mitigation that Physical Ranged has. You will also get penalized for having two of the same jobs for LB generation, meaning you'll lose an LB1 at the end of the fight, which is also important for the dps check.

So yes, the fights are still tuned to have all 5% Party Bonus (and thus need a Physical Ranged), not just because of the dps check, but also because of the raid wides, party busters and mitigation checks and the fact that it doesn't only increase dps, it also increases hp.

THIS IS NOT A MILD INCENTIVE,

If this is some mild incentivize, then having 2 tanks and 2 healers is a mild incentive.

Calling this a mild incentive is like assuming that everyone can solo heal or solo tank an Ultimate, when even if you technically can, it's still clearly designed for two tanks and two healers.

Addle does no more mitigation than is supplied by the +/-5% attached to every damage event.

Addle does 10% mitigation to magical damage. That extra 5% to mitigation counts in a non overgeared scenario, just like the Party Bonus.
In fact, if you over mitigate a raidwide, you won't have another cooldown for the next raid wide, and the next one and the next one.
That's why you keep a mitigation sheet, so you don't over mitigate it.

But here, since Addle was enough to save people from an otherwise guaranteed wipe, I should see, at least once where Addle was used, people surviving by a hair within the various Ultimate logs, no?

(For context, the lowest party member's max hp is 56k (with a 5% Party Bonus) )

You mean stuff like Ultimate End in DSR, where even with Reprisal, Sacred Soil, Addle, and Shields it still deals 51k damage?
Or do you mean stuff like Ancient Quaga, where even with Shields, Soil, Dark Missionary, Reprisal and Addle, it still deals 51k?

Let's go to P6.

Or maybe you mean Hallowed Plume, where even with Bloodwhetting, Adlo, Divine Benison, and Aquaveil, it deals 56k damage on a tank?
Or maybe even just Akh Morn, where even with Seraph shields, Dark Missionary, Addle, Expedient, and Reprisal it deals 20k damage/ per second for 4 straight blasts?

The moment you miss a mitigation for any one of these skills, hell even if you don't have food buff on for the vitality buff, you'll actually die and wipe the group.
So it's extremely disingenous to say that mitigation is not that tight.

And... they're clearing with over a minute to spare. Hmm. Odd, that.[/INDENT][/INDENT]

Oh cool, what's the comp? Is that with a physical ranged 1% Party bonus, or is it double BLM?
And what fight is it? Are they overgeared or minimum ilvl?

Put MP costs on healing abilities, have the potency and costs of MP spenders scale with current %MP, and voila, now Rangers' granting MP no longer requires healers to otherwise lose access to their spells after X time for it to have value, because there is actually something available for trade, rather than just "Can cast / Can't cast."

This... is literally what they did when they revamped max mana to only be 10k.
That's why they homogenized MP. This is literally that we have right now.

From there you have an actual context where MP utility feels like a bonus, rather than a fetter purposely added just to be removed again (purposely desyncing all raid damage from healer cooldowns or by whatever other means forcing healers to need it or face inevitable wipes because it constrains their literal ability to cast spells at all).

Which is why I said that it should be a recovery option instead, but again, you wanted there to be a reason for pressing it which brings me to the next point:

Your "added a reason to press it" required that every serious fight in the game be changed to realign damage intervals to make healers' abilities unusable over heal checks... just to further tax MP via AoE spells... just to then make Ranged more obligatory for being able to give that MP back. You are requiring an absurd number of hoops there just to, ultimately, try to make healing dependent on Physical Ranged.

Realigning damage intervals will go ahead and give healers something more to heal yes, which is literally what they're looking for. Ranged are already obligatory because of the Party Bonus, and the only way to actually get away from that obligatory Party Bonus is to literally be overgeared, which you can literally drop a healer and a tank in a party and do whatever if you're overgeared.

The healers want more to heal, so yes give them something to heal. If MP is gonna be the issue blocking the devs from giving them more to heal, then solve it by literally giving Ranged Physicals more of a reason to be in the party, considering they've been tuning the fights with Physical Ranged in mind anyway.

If this is not good enough, then literally turn Refresh back into a recovery button, but again we're going to go back into the discussion of "yeah this is boring as fuck, make it have a purpose", which is exactly what this line is:

And yet, at the end of all that, that dependence doesn't add a mechanic beyond your hitting your raidwide Lucid Dreaming on CD.

As for your next post:

I agree with almost everything in what you said in the Do portion however:

1. Relegating added utility to Role Actions will make it so that every job in the ROLE will be able to clear content, and thus is needed. The devs will be able to go ahead and design fights with role actions in mind because again, they're goal is to go ahead and Make sure that every job in a role can clear any content . Not adding utility to the role will just mean it won't get used in the fight, just like Fluid Aura, and Repose. If you DO design fights around the utility that a specific JOB in the ROLE, then you will be FORCED to play that job in that fight, which is not what we're looking for

2. Setting them up as Single Target, 2-Target and AoE version will go ahead and incentivize the mastery of the role but not require it, which is what we want. You wanna be optimal? Go ahead, and pick the job depending on the encounter type of the fight. Like I said, this is literally what the jobs design for the Role is right now , and this is just going to boost that distinction across the jobs in the role

3. It's not even necessary to require the removal of function, it can just be a supplement, which is literally what my first proposal for Refresh is. It's just a supplement to niche scenarios where the healers died, or the caster died, or the RDM needs to rapid rez people in a prog scenario. This is the best option if we don't want this button to be mandatory, but if we want more reasons to press this button "to make it interesting", then we're gonna go ahead and make the healers have the risk to go OOM, or close to it.

[Shurrikhan]

For context, my hopes for Physical Ranged:

1. Give them back meaningful mechanics in their rotations, rather than solely the general mechanics of hitting the glowing button and pooling charges (atop, at best, choosing which song order to be locked to from then out).
   
   
2. Give them distinct forms of utility --here meaning something with variable value and not directly exchangeable to rDPS / moving numbers out and back again-- that reward timing and, via the kit's context, add additional depth to positioning and/or rotation. Give the most situational of that utility an opportunity cost itself, rather than taxing the kit itself in all fights for the few fights in which it's particularly useful.
   
   
3. Improve their rDPS (by 4-6%, depending on the average value of the utility added above). Roles should not be taken only for their 1% Damage bonus. If we're still somehow following the "hypermobility tax," then, screw it, give Physical Ranged the occasional cast and or melee skill, inverse to the likes of BLM's or NIN's 'occasional instant' or 'occasional loss-less ranged attack', and give Physical Ranged a little bit more throughput to work with/from if they optimize it.
   
   
4. Dive deeper into core themes of song, dance, and tech/construction, building up from that instead of attempting to just meet a shared template or checklist through reskinned equivalents.

Do not:

1. Relegate added utility solely to Role Actions.
   
   
2. Set them up as the ST, 2-target, and AoE versions of each other. If they are to be advantaged in a given fight, let that be due to the sum of their finer utilities.
   
   
3. Give them utility that would require the removal of functions or internal synergy from others (e.g., Lucid Dreaming or Internal Release being turned into Refresh or Devilment, respectively). Well, too late for that last one.

[Tetsujin]

MCH is the only ranged class I can opine about, but at least when it comes to it, I feel like all the execution and nuance has been taken out and replaced by mindless button mashing. Really, that simple. It's got high APM without any thought.

I realize old MCH had ping issues and that people could find it very difficult if not outright impossible to fit everything into wildfire. Instead of fixing that, making Wildfire a stack type of debuff, or anything else, MCH was instead stripped of so much. Stance dancing, ammo system, its RNG manipulation, the turret features were scraped to the point turret/automaton queen is almost a DoT you can see, DoTs themsleves, any real AoE optimization, a lot of utility, headshot, I mean. Whew. That's off the top of my head! And for what? For it to supposedly be a selfish DPS which amusingly enough had worse damage than its peers last time I was subbed? Hope they fixed that at least.

And yes, people complained about BRD casting but when this happened in HW, that was when the MCH identity was made and thus the devs should have kept this aspect of its gameplay going forward while BRD returned to being the lighter more mobile ranged class. For heaven's sake, it's a class with guns and heavy weaponry. Machinist WAS a mix of both things ultimately, similar to Samurai with their Iaijutsu thanks to the stance system. Skilled players, especially in raids, would change it up on the fly. It was a rich job with demanding execution, forethought, and depth, but INCREDIBLY rewarding. 3.4 and 3.5 MCH was a dream if you had the ping.

Now it's as simple as can be, I don't even think there's any real weaving. Lots of mashing so you feel busy. It's bland and boring, and as I hear it BRD's interactivity with DoTs, RNG, and more has been striped as well.

[Curisu]

Wait, what is this long discussion about?
Not everyone has to like every job/role.

I know enough people who like to play phys ranged.
There is no phys range shortage in any content.

The 1 each roles buff is just really important in week one savage, ultimates and when a LB is needed.

I would say that phys ranged are in a good spot right now.
You have different playstyles for them and everyone is viable in any content.

[Supersnow845]

Wait, what is this long discussion about?
Not everyone has to like every job/role.

I know enough people who like to play phys ranged.
There is no phys range shortage in any content.

The 1 each roles buff is just really important in week one savage, ultimates and when a LB is needed.

I would say that phys ranged are in a good spot right now.
You have different playstyles for them and everyone is viable in any content.

Physical ranged is basically being carried by its contribution to the 5% role buff, the physical range have a massive damage tax that never actually gets utilised because it’s way too easy to get uptime as a melee, MCH is the selfish class yet does the worst damage of the 3, BRD lost half its identity when the removed interaction with DOT’s and DNC is just…..fine

If there wasn’t a role bonus then double caster double melee or double melee BLM caster would become the meta comp, phys ranged just bring nothing to the table right now

[CKNovel]

The 1 each roles buff is just really important in week one savage, ultimates and when a LB is needed.

I would say that phys ranged are in a good spot right now.
You have different playstyles for them and everyone is viable in any content.

They're in the worst spot. To be fair, they're in the "Bad but just good enough so that there is at least 1 ranged in each group"

Damage wise, they're the lowest and since 2 of them are rDPS based and low personal damage, they have terrible synergy between each other.
MCH is especially in a terrible spot since it only has 2 natural aoes, being Ricochet and Chain Saw.
Ricochet needs the targets to be stacked and Chain Saw has a too severe fall off. DNC&BRD have the same fall off but they also have multiple line aoes.

MCH being gauge based also hurts the job. DSR can easily have 1 full minute of downtime for a lot of mechanics. During this minute, MCH doesn't build gauges and loose 2-3 Drills and potentially 1 Air Anchor.
BRD cannot play its song during downtime, which, correct me if I'm wrong, hurts Radiant Finale.

Mobility wise, we're in a "meta" where mobility is overrated, complex mechanic don't have uptime for anyone and bosses hitbox are adjusted for melee uptime. We're also in an expansion where SMN has a ranged mobility and BLM, with the right level of skill, can be more mobile than MCH.

DNC has 3 charges of En Avant but will mostly sit at 3 charges.

Utility wise, they're near bottom. All MCH brings is Tactician which is also brought by BRD and DNC and it also doesn't stack, making the ranged role even more anti-synergy.

To compare all DPS:
MCH has nothing, not even a personal shield.
BRD has Nature's Minne (a good skill paired with SCH) and Warden's Paen which has seen a use in TEA and nothing else since.
DNC shines a little bit more with Cure Waltz and Improvisation

SMN has a personal shield, a party hot (though unreliable), Rekindle and Resurrection.
RDM has magick barrier and res.
BLM has a personal barrier.
And they all share Addle.

All melees have at least a personal mitigation except DRG and they all share Feint/Bloodbath.

So much for "Support DPS". If it wasn't for that 1% bonus, a lot of PF would be closed to physical ranged.
Many ultimate groups would simply not have any ranged.