Kaiten

[CelestiCer]

*sigh* if you combine Shoha 1 with Shoha 2 and combine Senei with Guren you gonna lose control on what do you wanna do! Shoha 1 and Senei are for Single Target, Shoha 2 and Guren are for AoE

SE's excuse was - Button Bloat. Let us not forget that ever. Thus, plenty players bargain suggest logical alternative Button Bloat Solutions over Kaiten Removal.

There aren't any mechanics in FFXIV that requires that much precise damage control targeting. There isn't a reflect in this game that's that detrimental. There's The Tower at Paradigm's bosses " Hansel & Gretel ", with a knocback but they need to be pulled apart anyways. There is no hitting the wrong target and get reflected... Instant Death, or Bleed/Slow/Silence/Sleep/Frost/Burn/EmotionalDamage.

Heck, SE already neglects control with Ogi Namikiri. There's no choice it is AoE rather you like it or not. And Tenka Goken is a fart circle we have less Aim with it then a Cone. It just doesn't matter until they introduce mechanics where it does.

And until they do? The solutions players suggested are valid.
Shoha I + II fused. 1st target hit with Shoha I potency, Cone fall off damage of Shoha II.
Senei+Guren fused. 1st target hit with Senei potency, Line fall off damage of Guren.
Next to Ikishoten turning into Ogi Namikiri, these fused skills solve their supposedly poor excuse of Button Bloat issue more logically? then their 6.1 Kaitenremoval.

[xAFROx]

There are definitely a ton of better things that they could have done and don't listen to Ryuu's ridiculous stance on needing separate AE/single target abilities that do the same thing. Here's what they should have done:



Have Shoha upgrade to Shoha II with a high potency plus AE fall-off damage

Combine Shinten and Kyuten into 1 ability with high potency plus AE fall-off damage

Have Tsubame replace Iaijutsu after using Iaijutsu

Combine Guren and Senei into a single attack with high potency plus AE fall-off damage

Combine Gyoten and Yaten into an ability similar to Icarus/Thunderclap that just takes you to a target

Have Ogi Namakiri replace Ikishoten


Easy 6-7 abilities cleared off the hotbars with NO change to how the job plays.

I don't think we should remove our disengage button. I like to stylishly jump out and in from danger. But everything else is fine, though I think as filler abilities, shinten and kyuten can remain separate.

I still stand by my stance that higher potency abilities should upgrade situationally off of those two based on resource. It compromises several complaints and maintains all existing skills without removing or altering their performance in any way. That's at least a start, imo

[RyuuZero]

SE's excuse was - Button Bloat. Let us not forget that ever. Thus, plenty players bargain suggest logical alternative Button Bloat Solutions over Kaiten Removal.

There aren't any mechanics in FFXIV that requires that much precise damage control targeting. There isn't a reflect in this game that's that detrimental. There's The Tower at Paradigm's bosses " Hansel & Gretel ", with a knocback but they need to be pulled apart anyways. There is no hitting the wrong target and get reflected... Instant Death, or Bleed/Slow/Silence/Sleep/Frost/Burn/EmotionalDamage.

Heck, SE already neglects control with Ogi Namikiri. There's no choice it is AoE rather you like it or not. And Tenka Goken is a fart circle we have less Aim with it then a Cone. It just doesn't matter until they introduce mechanics where it does.

And until they do? The solutions players suggested are valid.
Shoha I + II fused. 1st target hit with Shoha I potency, Cone fall off damage of Shoha II.
Senei+Guren fused. 1st target hit with Senei potency, Line fall off damage of Guren.
Next to Ikishoten turning into Ogi Namikiri, these fused skills solve their supposedly poor excuse of Button Bloat issue more logically? then their 6.1 Kaitenremoval.

Those player solutions aren't valid, if we turn all those skills into AoE, the whole Resources turn into AoE Resources and step closer into meaninglessness, which is the Problem that Kenki has right Now, it isn't the Damage Boosting Resource it used to be. Kenki Now is just for Filler Attacks and sit on 20 Kenki for the lols. I already shared my Ikishoten into Ogi Macro, but fine if ya'all will bring up how Ikishoten should turn into Ogi Namikiri, let me share my Double Slice Buster Macro with you again:
/macroicon Ikishoten
/ac Ikishoten
/ac Ogi Namikiri
you have to press the button 3 times for everything, I wrote this stuff months ago (!!) and please do not cry about "but I do not want a Macro!!", where I have to say either the macro or cry about it for at least 2 years
+ didn't we already dismiss the Button Bloat Arguement aswell and rather prefer a roll back of Samurai to 6.08? but I digress.. a Better Idea to address the "Button Bloat" would be to turn Hakaze into Shoha 1 and Fuko into Shoha 2 (because Hakaze is Single Target and Shoha 1 is Single Target and Fuko is AoE and so is Mumyo Shoha) but in my player experience then we may step Closer to be a Dragoon with a Katana...

[CelestiCer]

snip

They are, because they solve the problem Square made as an excuse, the so called " Button Bloat " issue.

Let me be clear, I don't have a Button Bloat Issue nor do I think there is one for SAM. They could add 3 more skills I would still not have a Button Bloat issue and I don't even use an MMO mouse nor Macro's. There are SAM controller players who make fun of others who say there's a Button Bloat problem for SAM.

That being said, it's Square's statement, their Excuse = Button Bloat. So we give Button Bloat solutions. Square or any company is not going to state to us " just use Macro's ". You can do a self-made-bandage-solution if its a probelm, but it then by design is just bad to have players need to do that.

There's a reason why so many players/streamers/youtubers stated the following solutions

• Shoha I + II fused as 1 skill/button
• Ikishoten + Ogi Namikiri button fused
• Senei + Guren fused as 1 skill/button

Cause they make sense, it solves their imaginary excuse of a problem better then Kaiten removal.

As for resources, Kaiten buffed Midare and Higanbana making our resource not just AoE and not just meaningless. And heck these Valid solutions make room for skills that could make Meditation stacks and Kenki more interactive vs ripping Kaiten away and leaving us with a Shinten Gauge now! then I will take all of these valid solutions and Kaiten over some darn Kyuten/Shinten Gauge yes if we're talking meaningless.

[xAFROx]

Those player solutions aren't valid, if we turn all those skills into AoE, the whole Resources turn into AoE Resources and step closer into meaninglessness, which is the Problem that Kenki has right Now, it isn't the Damage Boosting Resource it used to be. Kenki Now is just for Filler Attacks and sit on 20 Kenki for the lols. I already shared my Ikishoten into Ogi Macro, but fine if ya'all will bring up how Ikishoten should turn into Ogi Namikiri, let me share my Double Slice Buster Macro with you again:
/macroicon Ikishoten
/ac Ikishoten
/ac Ogi Namikiri
you have to press the button 3 times for everything, I wrote this stuff months ago (!!) and please do not cry about "but I do not want a Macro!!", where I have to say either the macro or cry about it for at least 2 years
+ didn't we already dismiss the Button Bloat Arguement aswell and rather prefer a roll back of Samurai to 6.08? but I digress.. a Better Idea to address the "Button Bloat" would be to turn Hakaze into Shoha 1 and Fuko into Shoha 2 (because Hakaze is Single Target and Shoha 1 is Single Target and Fuko is AoE and so is Mumyo Shoha) but in my player experience then we may step Closer to be a Dragoon with a Katana...

I distinctly remember people pointing out why a macro was a bad idea for merging skills and actions together. Something about how a self-made macro doesn't queue like a normal skill and requires the gcd to have finished rolling before it can properly be used.

Sounds slow when the typical way of play is queueing skills before the gcd finishes rolling around. Not that I've played with macros before. I never bothered setting those up for my tank invulns or my healer rezzes.

Still, a player made solution means there's a problem in the design.

[RyuuZero]

I distinctly remember people pointing out why a macro was a bad idea for merging skills and actions together. Something about how a self-made macro doesn't queue like a normal skill and requires the gcd to have finished rolling before it can properly be used.

Sounds slow when the typical way of play is queueing skills before the gcd finishes rolling around. Not that I've played with macros before. I never bothered setting those up for my tank invulns or my healer rezzes.

Still, a player made solution means there's a problem in the design.

yeah but what do you wanna do? argue on the forums for the next 2 years or use the Player-made solution, which is not a 3rd Party Mod btw ^^

[RyuuZero]

They are, because they solve the problem Square made as an excuse, the so called " Button Bloat " issue.

Let me be clear, I don't have a Button Bloat Issue nor do I think there is one for SAM. They could add 3 more skills I would still not have a Button Bloat issue and I don't even use an MMO mouse nor Macro's. There are SAM controller players who make fun of others who say there's a Button Bloat problem for SAM.

That being said, it's Square's statement, their Excuse = Button Bloat. So we give Button Bloat solutions. Square or any company is not going to state to us " just use Macro's ". You can do a self-made-bandage-solution if its a probelm, but it then by design is just bad to have players need to do that.

There's a reason why so many players/streamers/youtubers stated the following solutions

• Shoha I + II fused as 1 skill/button
• Ikishoten + Ogi Namikiri button fused
• Senei + Guren fused as 1 skill/button

Cause they make sense, it solves their imaginary excuse of a problem better then Kaiten removal.

As for resources, Kaiten buffed Midare and Higanbana making our resource not just AoE and not just meaningless. And heck these Valid solutions make room for skills that could make Meditation stacks and Kenki more interactive vs ripping Kaiten away and leaving us with a Shinten Gauge now! then I will take all of these valid solutions and Kaiten over some darn Kyuten/Shinten Gauge yes if we're talking meaningless.

Am I seriously the only one who sees the Problem when merging those Skills together? It would religate the entire resource to a single situation! and that's not what Samurai do.. it is what Dragoons is all about
Shoha + Mumyo Shoha = Geirskogul
Senei + Guren = Nastrond
Samurai prepare for Battle, Dragoons jump in and wreak havoc.

[fulminating]

I think the problem with merging them is less than the problem that results from killing the gauge management aspect of the job

[RyuuZero]

I think the problem with merging them is less than the problem that results from killing the gauge management aspect of the job

both are not preferable! The Devs just made a Fatal Misjudgment and turned the Samurai into a Spam X for DPS.. but merging skills like those suggestions would just turn them into Dragoons with Katanas

[xAFROx]

yeah but what do you wanna do? argue on the forums for the next 2 years or use the Player-made solution, which is not a 3rd Party Mod btw ^^

I'll keep calmly stating that the devs should have made iki and ogi the same button. As of 6.08, I have no issue with button bloat. While I may advocate for a cleaner setup in the hope that they consider alternatives to whatever excuse they may give us, it's all so we don't end up losing actions like we did with Seigan and Kaiten.

Am I seriously the only one who sees the Problem when merging those Skills together? It would religate the entire resource to a single situation! and that's not what Samurai do.. it is what Dragoons is all about
Shoha + Mumyo Shoha = Geirskogul
Senei + Guren = Nastrond
Samurai prepare for Battle, Dragoons jump in and wreak havoc.

To be fair, most of the SAM skills that folks have suggested merging are a lot more frequent in use than anything DRG has, aside from geirskogul.

I still think the transforming shinten and kyuten is the bare minimum they could do to cleaning up the bar while also improving meditation stacks to have a fuller kit than just being tacked on.