CC balance

[Myon88]

SMN doesn't need hard CC. Mountain Buster is a draw-in, bind, and heavy all in one package with a pretty short cooldown. Draw-in effects are *immensely* powerful. SMN's biggest issue is that Slipstream is just kind of... there. It's very rare to have it actually do anything meaningful because you can't directly place it and the safe area is quite large. Something needs to change with that skill. That's probably all SMN needs.

Remember, SMN has the strongest buff in the game - it's literally giving Holy Sheltron to anyone they want. I don't think they need a stun when they instead bring an anti-burst buff like that.

I don't think they need a stun, but a silence on the donut portion of slipstream I would consider fair. It would actually serve its function as an area denial tool instead of a 4k dot which no one respects at all.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

I'm not sure about NIN killing SGE easily, but I know MNK LB is still a 1 minute no-fun-allowed button against casters/healers. That's a big oof.

NIN can kill whoever they want if they put their mind to it. That job just has so many options. And if they're not solo killing me, Raiju more than ensures that their dive buddy can get the job done. Plus, having 48k max hp means it takes that much less effort to get me into <=50% Seiton execution range.

I forgot to address this earlier, but when you said the NIN nerf was a "step in the right direction", that's exactly what I meant by respecting the weight of the long patch cycle. The mode and the season don't have the TIME for baby steps in the right direction. At this rate, it'll be a full year before jobs like NIN are addressed appropriately. If we have to live with a game state for 2-3mo, then the appropriate boldness and effort should be put into corrective measures when a job is clearly a huge over-performer.

[Petite]

NIN can kill whoever they want if they put their mind to it. That job just has so many options. And if they're not solo killing me, Raiju more than ensures that their dive buddy can get the job done. Plus, having 48k max hp means it takes that much less effort to get me into <=50% Seiton execution range.

Thinking back on it, you're right about your predicament. I just played against a good NIN and my DRG was shut down every 90s despite my best efforts at staying above 50% and avoid focus-fire. That NIN most likely thought I was my team's best hope and dedicated Seiton to me first and foremost. I get the feeling.

Also, I realized matches are still heavily decided by which team gets the better BLM. Their damage is still absurd.

[Gserpent]

I don't think they need a stun, but a silence on the donut portion of slipstream I would consider fair. It would actually serve its function as an area denial tool instead of a 4k dot which no one respects at all.

Silence is definitely too much, especially if it would be AOE. I was thinking more like a 10% Slow effect or something. Or the donut would give your allies 10% Haste.

NIN can kill whoever they want if they put their mind to it. That job just has so many options. And if they're not solo killing me, Raiju more than ensures that their dive buddy can get the job done. Plus, having 48k max hp means it takes that much less effort to get me into <=50% Seiton execution range.

I forgot to address this earlier, but when you said the NIN nerf was a "step in the right direction", that's exactly what I meant by respecting the weight of the long patch cycle. The mode and the season don't have the TIME for baby steps in the right direction. At this rate, it'll be a full year before jobs like NIN are addressed appropriately. If we have to live with a game state for 2-3mo, then the appropriate boldness and effort should be put into corrective measures when a job is clearly a huge over-performer.

NIN is balanced. You need to pressure them into using mudras on defense. That's the primary method of dealing with them - not necessarily trying to kill them, but forcing them to use Meisui or Huton so they have less offense available. If they need any nerf, I'd increase Shukuchi cooldown to 20.

I wouldn't mind seeing Seiton changed to "deals damage equal to target's HP" under the threshold instead of just plain death, though. That would allow for more counter-play with mitigation, shields, etc to compensate for it (similar to how you can survive being Odin'd by SAM if you have shields.) If that would result in the skill being too weak, I'd change its operation to deal the base damage and *then* check for threshold instead of how it functions now (it either deals damage or executes depending on threshold.)

[Risvertasashi]

I'd have asked for SMN buffs. But I knew everyone would rage about how it is in frontlines, even though it was too weak in CC.

And, there's a lot more healer diversity now. So I'm glad SE didn't listen to the "nerf WHM into the ground" crowd, among other things - people posting these sorts of threads clearly have no clue how to balance CC.

[SweetPete]

I have fallen head over heels for Scholar. I thought it was the loser of the healers but I can admit I was totally wrong. I absolutely love scholar in pvp. It’s super support. Giving Astro a run for its money for sure. I love it. It’s perfect.

Would you guys change scholar in anyway? I think it’s fine the way it is. I actually want adlo to be instant cast in pve like it is in pvp to match Astros aspected benefic instant cast.

[Gserpent]

Nah, SCH is fine. AST is still top dog because its kit is honestly kind of overpowered, but at least they don't have AOE CC anymore. I would have preferred more nerfs to Aspected Benefic, though - it's the only thing that's really making AST overpowered. 10k raw healing on an instant action is simply too much, especially when it adds riders like a 4k regen or 4k shield. I think I'd just make it flat 8k healing + regen for the first use and flat 4k healing + shield for the double cast. It would still leave AST as the most powerful healer (that's still 12k raw healing plus 4k regen plus 4k shield for one instant GCD and an oGCD) but reducing the maximum raw healing to 24k instead of 40k would certainly bring them back into line with the other healers. Do that and combine it with the loss of AOE CC and I think the class would be fine.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

NIN is balanced. You need to pressure them into using mudras on defense. That's the primary method of dealing with them - not necessarily trying to kill them, but forcing them to use Meisui or Huton so they have less offense available.

Tools spent on a NIN are tools unavailable for the rest of their team. And besides, the sheer fact that NIN even has those sorts of options and survivability is exactly what makes it so strong. You yourself are admitting that actually killing them is often too much to ask. And the second you allocate your resources elsewhere, the NIN can just switch gears and go to town. That, or Seiton cleans up a close teamfight like no other ability in the game can do.

NIN has good single-tgt damage, aoe, burst, dps, cc, ranged options, (safe) mobility, and best-in-class safety through bunshin/huton. It's top of the dps food chain by miles in almost every category, only beaten out in aoe by a handful of casters.

And, there's a lot more healer diversity now. So I'm glad SE didn't listen to the "nerf WHM into the ground" crowd, among other things - people posting these sorts of threads clearly have no clue how to balance CC.

MoN remains one of the best cc's in the game, and Purgation one of the best and fastest LBs. Just because people have discovered AST had a higher skill cap doesn't make WHM any less broken. I'd really like to see an API release, because idk what healer diversity you're seeing that I'm missing. Most everyone is still spamming WHM/AST, with a smattering of SCHs and maybe 5 Crystal SGE mains in the whole DC.

[Risvertasashi]

MoN remains one of the best cc's in the game, and Purgation one of the best and fastest LBs. Just because people have discovered AST had a higher skill cap doesn't make WHM any less broken. I'd really like to see an API release, because idk what healer diversity you're seeing that I'm missing. Most everyone is still spamming WHM/AST, with a smattering of SCHs and maybe 5 Crystal SGE mains in the whole DC.

Ah yes, the ol' "I'm going to list the things a job can do to make it sound OP!"

But you hit the nail on the head with what you said in the second part: SGE needs a buff. AST, WHM, SCH are in good spots. Which is similar to where most roles are right now.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

Ah yes, the ol' "I'm going to list the things a job can do to make it sound OP!"

I eagerly await the valid counter-argument to that absolute mess of a kitchen sink that NIN has available to it. Which other jobs can do all that? Or even approach that in terms of relative versatility + strength + safety? It sounds OP because it is OP.