CC balance

[Myon88]

SMN doesn't need hard CC. Mountain Buster is a draw-in, bind, and heavy all in one package with a pretty short cooldown. Draw-in effects are *immensely* powerful. SMN's biggest issue is that Slipstream is just kind of... there. It's very rare to have it actually do anything meaningful because you can't directly place it and the safe area is quite large. Something needs to change with that skill. That's probably all SMN needs.

Remember, SMN has the strongest buff in the game - it's literally giving Holy Sheltron to anyone they want. I don't think they need a stun when they instead bring an anti-burst buff like that.

I don't think they need a stun, but a silence on the donut portion of slipstream I would consider fair. It would actually serve its function as an area denial tool instead of a 4k dot which no one respects at all.

[Risvertasashi]

I'd have asked for SMN buffs. But I knew everyone would rage about how it is in frontlines, even though it was too weak in CC.

And, there's a lot more healer diversity now. So I'm glad SE didn't listen to the "nerf WHM into the ground" crowd, among other things - people posting these sorts of threads clearly have no clue how to balance CC.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

NIN is balanced. You need to pressure them into using mudras on defense. That's the primary method of dealing with them - not necessarily trying to kill them, but forcing them to use Meisui or Huton so they have less offense available.

Tools spent on a NIN are tools unavailable for the rest of their team. And besides, the sheer fact that NIN even has those sorts of options and survivability is exactly what makes it so strong. You yourself are admitting that actually killing them is often too much to ask. And the second you allocate your resources elsewhere, the NIN can just switch gears and go to town. That, or Seiton cleans up a close teamfight like no other ability in the game can do.

NIN has good single-tgt damage, aoe, burst, dps, cc, ranged options, (safe) mobility, and best-in-class safety through bunshin/huton. It's top of the dps food chain by miles in almost every category, only beaten out in aoe by a handful of casters.

And, there's a lot more healer diversity now. So I'm glad SE didn't listen to the "nerf WHM into the ground" crowd, among other things - people posting these sorts of threads clearly have no clue how to balance CC.

MoN remains one of the best cc's in the game, and Purgation one of the best and fastest LBs. Just because people have discovered AST had a higher skill cap doesn't make WHM any less broken. I'd really like to see an API release, because idk what healer diversity you're seeing that I'm missing. Most everyone is still spamming WHM/AST, with a smattering of SCHs and maybe 5 Crystal SGE mains in the whole DC.

[Risvertasashi]

MoN remains one of the best cc's in the game, and Purgation one of the best and fastest LBs. Just because people have discovered AST had a higher skill cap doesn't make WHM any less broken. I'd really like to see an API release, because idk what healer diversity you're seeing that I'm missing. Most everyone is still spamming WHM/AST, with a smattering of SCHs and maybe 5 Crystal SGE mains in the whole DC.

Ah yes, the ol' "I'm going to list the things a job can do to make it sound OP!"

But you hit the nail on the head with what you said in the second part: SGE needs a buff. AST, WHM, SCH are in good spots. Which is similar to where most roles are right now.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

Ah yes, the ol' "I'm going to list the things a job can do to make it sound OP!"

I eagerly await the valid counter-argument to that absolute mess of a kitchen sink that NIN has available to it. Which other jobs can do all that? Or even approach that in terms of relative versatility + strength + safety? It sounds OP because it is OP.

[Petite]

If [NIN] need any nerf, I'd increase Shukuchi cooldown to 20.
> That’s not a nerf, that’s misdirection. NIN’s *Bunshinless* burst is already on a 20s CD because Mug is just 5s away.

You need to pressure them into using mudras on defense. That's the primary method of dealing with them
> This is a made up "weakness". Every job struggles under a lot of pressure.

Why do you feel the need to downplay NIN so much when you speak about it? It’s not oppressively strong, but it has no weaknesses besides getting clipped out of Stealth (not a big deal if you replace Assassinate with a Shuriken).

Here are the other 4 melee DPS's weaknesses (and I'm sure I'm missing some):

DRG
• Is 25% more vulnerable under Gierskogul
• You can mitigate WWT if you manage to gap-close the DRG in time
• Horrid Roar has to hit people to work on them
• LB can be countered with a simple Guard

SAM
• Has cast times
• Chiten is short
• The 3s LB debuff window is short
• LB can be countered if you’re on the lookout for Chiten or have shields

MNK
• Must attack in melee range to work towards its burst
• Earth’s Reply can’t go off when CCed

RPR
• There’s a 2.94s gap between your last Reaping weaponskill and Communio which is ample time for you to LOS it and heal yourself
• LB can easily be messed with or guarded

Please don’t give me that "but NIN has the weakest sustained damage" argument you once gave before. That’s a BS argument when it concerns a 20s burst-specialized job that can deal up to 46.4K in 4s with a built-in 2s stun.

Besides that, NIN is incredibly versatile with access to:
• tons of ranged attacks;
• an instant 16k barrier;
• a self-HoT;
• a potent AOE DOT;
• an AOE slow;
• fire-and-forget mitigation with Bunshin;
• teleport into stealth;
• double-stun
• An LB which only the NIN itself can cause to fail.

Look, I love NIN, it’s my alt job in ranked CC. But let’s not BS each other out of fear of our jobs getting nerfed. SE only moves when there's mass outrage like in 6.11a anyway.

[Gserpent]

Tools spent on a NIN are tools unavailable for the rest of their team. And besides, the sheer fact that NIN even has those sorts of options and survivability is exactly what makes it so strong. You yourself are admitting that actually killing them is often too much to ask. And the second you allocate your resources elsewhere, the NIN can just switch gears and go to town. That, or Seiton cleans up a close teamfight like no other ability in the game can do.

NIN has good single-tgt damage, aoe, burst, dps, cc, ranged options, (safe) mobility, and best-in-class safety through bunshin/huton. It's top of the dps food chain by miles in almost every category, only beaten out in aoe by a handful of casters.

NIN's sustained DPS is bottom of the barrel and their burst DPS is only middle of the pack. Their entire gimmick is in sticking around and constantly harassing and attritioning things down, their actual burst damage is very weak unless they fully commit to it... in which case they are literally the easiest DPS in the game to kill, because spending on burst means they can't spend on defense. Full burst requires Assassinate (uses Shukuchi), Hyosho (uses 1 mudra), and then either Goka applied beforehand (uses 1 mudra) or more commonly Raiju (costs 1 mudra) to force Purify and/or prevent healing if they don't have Purify. This means all three of their resources that can be used for defense have been committed to offense. They don't have a life steal skill, they don't have a separate DR or shielding button, they have absolutely nothing if they commit both mudras to offense. And if they *don't* commit everything to offense, their burst DPS is *also* bottom of the barrel.

NIN is completely fine and doesn't really need any changes. The reason I say you don't need to commit to killing the NIN isn't because it's too hard, but because if you force them to burn their mudras on defense, their DPS output is less than a Scholar's for the next 10-15 seconds. You can literally just ignore them. Killing them would bring them back in the same 15 sec, except they'd have full mana and all cooldowns. Better to force out the cooldowns and then ignore them.

MoN remains one of the best cc's in the game, and Purgation one of the best and fastest LBs. Just because people have discovered AST had a higher skill cap doesn't make WHM any less broken. I'd really like to see an API release, because idk what healer diversity you're seeing that I'm missing. Most everyone is still spamming WHM/AST, with a smattering of SCHs and maybe 5 Crystal SGE mains in the whole DC.

WHM is a little weak, actually. Purgation is good, but it's not nearly as good as you're making it out to be. You will typically be unable to hit more than maybe two people in high skill games with it unless you setup with your teammates (a draw-in combined with Purgation is very strong but that's a team comp thing, not WHM itself), they have the lowest DPS of any healer, and even their healing isn't that great - Cure 2 has a cast time (making it ineffective for healing people that are having to kite/LOS), and Cure 3 has a 20 sec cooldown. Seraph Strike is a good defensive button due to it only having 20 sec cd (compared to 30 sec for other healer defensives), but it requiring you to go into melee makes you vulnerable. Aquaveil is okay... it's basically a worse BRD Paean because it can't be used in advance.

So that just leaves Poly, so you better believe Poly has to be amazing because it's carrying the entire class between Purgation uses. But it doesn't stop movement and it doesn't deal damage, so even then it's not really as great as people make it out to be. And once you force the poly out, the White Mage has minimal impact in the game until either Purgation or poly comes up again.

Compare that to AST, who does way more DPS than WHM, has effective CC on a much shorter timer (that also does damage), an arguably better defensive skill in Macrocosmos, and cards... and then every 2 minutes they get the exceptionally strong Celestial River? Nah, fam. WHM is garbage compared to AST right now. I actually think they should revert the Afflatus Misery potency nerf, and also let Aquaveil be used proactively (provides CC shield that will block the next CC, exactly like Warden's Paean.) Because right now, only AST and SCH are worth taking in high skill games (SGE isn't a healer, it's a DPS.)

[Petite]

NIN's sustained DPS is bottom of the barrel and their burst DPS is only middle of the pack.

Caught in 4K. Guess you didn't read my post.

Please don’t give me that "but NIN has the weakest sustained damage" argument you once gave before. That’s a BS argument when it concerns a 20s burst-specialized job that can deal up to 46.4K in 4s with a built-in 2s stun.

[Gserpent]

Cought in 4K. Guess you didn't read my post.

More like ignored that bit, because it's just someone being salty instead of dealing with actual facts. NIN *does* have low sustained DPS, and they also have low burst DPS if they're forced to use mudras defensively. Like, you play NIN right? You should know this. The best way to mitigate a NIN's impact is to just thump them. Every time they have to use Shukuchi or Huton to escape a beating, that's a massive chunk of damage taken off the table for 15 seconds. If they just used Assassinate you can very often force both mudras to be used defensively since they have no easy way of escaping melee at that point.

No other class has to balance offense and defense in the same pool like that, except maybe GNB since D&J has a cooldown? Chiten, Roar, Crest, Riddle, etc... none of them cost anything to use. You can pop them without impacting your damage output at all. Meanwhile, every time NIN has to take a defensive action instead of an offensive one, their DPS drops like a rock. Bunshin is the only "free" defense button they have, but it's weak compared to every other melee's, and because the shadow duration is equal to the cooldown, NIN will almost always have used Bunshin well in advance of their attack so that they can stack the charges - you ideally want to throw out 5 buffed GCDs, Bunshin again, and throw out another 5 for maximum DPS. Sometimes that second Bunshin means you get to benefit from the shield, but more often than not it's wasted since the duration is only 10 sec.

[SweetPete]

I have fallen head over heels for Scholar. I thought it was the loser of the healers but I can admit I was totally wrong. I absolutely love scholar in pvp. It’s super support. Giving Astro a run for its money for sure. I love it. It’s perfect.

Would you guys change scholar in anyway? I think it’s fine the way it is. I actually want adlo to be instant cast in pve like it is in pvp to match Astros aspected benefic instant cast.