Aggro: Do we miss it?

[LeonKeyh]

Aggro management is a bad and outdated mechanic. it punishes good DPS players because the tank is bad.

As a primary DPS player in MMOs, +1 on this. It was a system that would set a "speed limit" for players based on the performance of 1 person.

"DPS checks are a bad and outdated mechanic. it punishes everyone because the DPS are bad."

Not the same thing. DPS checks are something that everyone contributes to; Aggro is a "speed limit" that is put into place by a single player based on their performance.

With DPS checks, everyone in the group can do their best and if they don't hit the DPS check then the group as a whole isn't good enough.

With Aggro, a single person needs to do their best and EVERY other person in the party is limited based on that 1 person's performance





Commentary: From a tank's perspective, I'd _love_ to have a better skill expression. IMO, AE abillities should have a smaller enmity generation and these wall to wall pulls should require tanks to cycle through mobs and keep aggro. But, the aggro mechanic itself is just there to slow everyone else down because of 1 player.

[Seku]

As a primary DPS player in MMOs, +1 on this. It was a system that would set a "speed limit" for players based on the performance of 1 person.



Not the same thing. DPS checks are something that everyone contributes to; Aggro is a "speed limit" that is put into place by a single player based on their performance.

With DPS checks, everyone in the group can do their best and if they don't hit the DPS check then the group as a whole isn't good enough.

With Aggro, a single person needs to do their best and EVERY other person in the party is limited based on that 1 person's performance





Commentary: From a tank's perspective, I'd _love_ to have a better skill expression. IMO, AE abillities should have a smaller enmity generation and these wall to wall pulls should require tanks to cycle through mobs and keep aggro. But, the aggro mechanic itself is just there to slow everyone else down because of 1 player.

Logic is flawed here, at least in the context of 14 since Aggro management was a team effort as well.

In short, you either fail or pass a DPS check which could be the fault of 1 to 8 people, you also won't know unless using 3rd party tools GL with that. A tank could easily turn back on their tank stance and enmity combo spam and never lose hate, which eliminates a majority of your "speed limit" argument, and is actually the DPS putting a "Speed limit" on the tank in terms of DPS in most cases as most DPS didn't use hate dumping tools.

But I don't miss it and really don't care if it comes back or not. If it does, I hope it's in the form of particular fight mechanics and not a core job identity
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[Canadane]

Aggro management is a bad and outdated mechanic. it punishes good DPS players because the tank is bad.

Seems like a good learning opportunity for the tank.
The game isn't shy about teaching via failures. Why is team effort shunned?

[Arohk]

Seems like a good learning opportunity for the tank.
The game isn't shy about teaching via failures. Why is team effort shunned?

Depending on the aggro mechanic and game design, a dps player could simply outgear the tank so hard, that there is no way for the tank to keep aggro in the first place, that is not good design, nobody want a badly equiped tank because the good dps will constanty pull aggro.
This might not be the case in FF14, but there are games that work this way.

[Sqwall]

Depending on the aggro mechanic and game design, a dps player could simply outgear the tank so hard, that there is no way for the tank to keep aggro in the first place, that is not good design, nobody want a badly equiped tank because the good dps will constanty pull aggro.
This might not be the case in FF14, but there are games that work this way.

THIS. Is the exact reason tanking was horrible from ARR to Stormblood. If a tank lost agro it was due to the wildly imbalanced agro system that was there. As a paladin with my relic weapon and shield...I would LOSE agro to a DRG with a CRAFTED weapon.

Which would force me to provoke, spam rage of halone combo...over...and over....and over...just to keep the agro off the drg that just kept creeping up on lead agro.

That was the WORST agro system like ever. Which is why WAR from Heavensward to Stormblood was THE top tank for holding agro AND doing amazing damage.

If you are a main tank...the agro system we have now....is STELLAR compared to what we had. The old system reminds me of old WoW where you literally had to whack your forehead on the keyboard to spam your skills to hold agro. FFFFFFF that.

Tanking shouldn't be THAT stressful.

I feel those that want this old system back...haven't really tanked all that much. I'm no stellar tank by any means, but I do understand the system we have now is perfect.

That being said....I do wish that SE would delve into some game mechanics where mobs might reset the agro table and all hell breaks loose. Then the tank has to scramble to grab it back. That would offer SOME danger in to those DPS that want to manage agro as their HP falls apart like a wet napkin, maybe that would help them appreciate the tank that pulls wall to wall with 18 mobs bashing me in the face.

[ArianeEwah]

I don't really miss the team-based enmity aspect of aggro management. Sure, Ninja was fun with this, but at the same time, it made the job almost mandatory in certain compositions, especially if you didn't have a Warrior. I feel nostagic, but that's about it.

However, I do miss that generating/holding aggro as a tank would require at least some knowledge about your rotation. Nowadays, you hold aggro without the slightest effort. You can go in, throw your weapon/shield on your enemies head, turn away from the game, open Netflix, watch cat videos, play Hello Kitty, etc. and still hold aggro. If they could just up the effort curve from this negative value, that would be great...

Commentary: From a tank's perspective, I'd _love_ to have a better skill expression. IMO, AE abillities should have a smaller enmity generation and these wall to wall pulls should require tanks to cycle through mobs and keep aggro. But, the aggro mechanic itself is just there to slow everyone else down because of 1 player.

Hard disagree on this one. 2 points:
1st; imho, you are more likely to lose aggro during the pull than in any boss fight; that's because you barely hit most trash once or twice before you sprint off to the other pack/wall. Losing aggro here can be fatal for many, especially casters.
2nd; if I understand you correctly, you want the tank to circle through every trash mob to hold aggro aka single target rotation? This will only slow down dungeon runs for no real reason. Unless you intend to make the other roles more interessting in dungeons, it's better to get over braindead content asap.

If anything, aggro generation on boss fights should be made harder. The enmity bar for every other role is not visible after a few seconds into the fight...
I can't even think of any content you would actually need THAT (10 times) much of enmity to keep aggro... well, except that one Delibrum Savage BLM with the minotaurus buff, but they could easily adjust the buffs enmity generation instead!

[LeonKeyh]

Logic is flawed here, at least in the context of 14 since Aggro management was a team effort as well.
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It really isn't. Aggro management for DPS in any game where it matters is "Press your aggro dropping abilities as soon as they become available again. That's not "management," even if people are seemingly incapable of doing it still.

Hard disagree on this one. 2 points:
1st; imho, you are more likely to lose aggro during the pull than in any boss fight; that's because you barely hit most trash once or twice before you sprint off to the other pack/wall. Losing aggro here can be fatal for many, especially casters.
2nd; if I understand you correctly, you want the tank to circle through every trash mob to hold aggro aka single target rotation? This will only slow down dungeon runs for no real reason. Unless you intend to make the other roles more interessting in dungeons, it's better to get over braindead content asap.

You're DRASTICALLY over stating the the problem that is losing aggro during a pull. Nobody is going to die unless they and the healer are asleep in addition to the tank. And this is the point. Doing something like that would actually make it so that being able to pull wall to wall is a skill expression, not "What everyone does because that's what we do and the gameplay isn't different for anyone."

[ArianeEwah]

You're DRASTICALLY over stating the the problem that is losing aggro during a pull. Nobody is going to die unless they and the healer are asleep in addition to the tank. And this is the point. Doing something like that would actually make it so that being able to pull wall to wall is a skill expression, not "What everyone does because that's what we do and the gameplay isn't different for anyone."

It may seem like that to you, but have you ever had a MCH in your party that uses both Reassembles on their AoE skills and/or an early Hypercharge? Or a SMN using Bahamut with Daethflare and Ahk Morn? Maybe they wouldn't die immediately, however it IS very easy to rip off aggro from a tank during the pull, and more likely the further away the "wall" is. (and yes, using said actions so early before you reach the wall may not be optimal, but some people/dps do it anyway)
Add your suggestion into this, it will either result in smaller or way slower pulls because the tank has to establish and hold aggro with single target skills. And as I said before, if you do not intend to widen AoE capabilities/complexity/etc. for other roles, trash pulls will remain braindead for them while increasing the amount/time of trash pulls... this is not desirable.

Maybe I don't understand your intentions here. Can you explain it in more detail?

And how much enmity, relatively speaking, should someone generate?

As long as it's not a times 10-multiplier, but less, anything will be better. Before we open up a discussion with duties (Eureka, Southern Front, dungeons/trials/raids), buffs (brink of death e.g.), excel etc. let me just give an example.
Let's say, there is a DNC choosing a dance partner before the pull. They want to determine whether their dance partner decision was right or not (assuming you don't have access nor using to certain 3rd party tool);
currently, they can only "confirm" their choice by looking at the enmity order/number shown, but the enmity bar is basically invisible.
imo, they should see the enmity bar and determine whether the difference - compared to the next best dps - was worth choosing their partner or they should swap at the next best opportunity.
...it's... not the best example, but the point is:
The enmity bar should not just be visible for tanks with stance on/shirk used only, but for dps and heal, too... like ~max half or a quarter of tank aggro... something like that.
Otherwise, why even bother keeping it? Just get rid of the enmity bar! Essentially, it serves no purpose.

PS: Dead Ends is a bad example because you get item level synced, and apparently Sqex is reworking story content with iLvl sync, too. I still get your point, tho.
Edit: Nevertheless, it should NOT be possible as iLvl 42-45 NQ GLD(!) with Iron Will to hold aggro vs an iLvl 130 synced SAM in a lvl50 boss fight... the dps has much better gear than the tank, even with the tank mastery trait and mitigation in mind they should take less dmg than the tank. (true story btw)

[Mikey_R]

The enmity bar should not just be visible for tanks with stance on/shirk used only, but for dps and heal, too... like ~max half or a quarter of tank aggro... something like that.
Otherwise, why even bother keeping it? Just get rid of the enmity bar! Essentially, it serves no purpose.

The problem with the enmity bar as it is is that everything increases enmity, RoF? Increases enmity, Life Surge? One for activation, one for the healing (ontop of the extra damage) etc. It is not a reliable way to track who is doing more damage, plus, as a Dancer, you are already buffing a DPS, which could tip it over another DPS who would be a better candidate. This could be solved by making enmity gain only based off of damage done, but then healers would then have nothing to worry about if they decided to Regen whilst pulling W2W. There is also the who point of, who does it then benefit? The Dancer and Dragoon are the only DPS ones who have a buff that needs to be put on another player and is not raidwide, then you have AST with their cards. Is this then worth changing the whole system for something that will only benefit the easier content? (Extremes and higher you should be able to trust he DPS).

Whilst I do understand where you are coming from when taking level 50 ilevels into account, you also have to consider the impact it has on the fight as a whole. You can have situations where the boss is swapping between targets, causing the DPS to lose positionals or having the boss cleave at the worst time (the amount of times I've seen someone hit by Titan Hards Mountain Buster because of tanks fighting is silly already and yes, it still hurts non tanks alot). So, in this example, the tank is meant to be keeping a consistent facing for the boss and keeping the fight smooth that way. They might require a bit more healing (though they should have i90 left and i70 right by this point, all obtainable through MSQ quests/job quests) but it keeps everyone else safe.

[ArianeEwah]

The problem with the enmity bar as it is is that everything increases enmity, RoF? Increases enmity, Life Surge?

Using abilities only gain you 1 enmity point, the dmg itself is another aspect we don't need to address in detail; dmg(/healing)=enmity is enough; but as I have already stated above: let a dps do like half or quarter the enmity a tank generates. Even if the tank doesn't fully understand their rotation, yet is still pressing buttons, they should have a decent chunk of enmity before the next best dps(/highest healing heal) creeps onto them.

I am not suggesting a reduction to x2 or x3, but rather x5 or x6, maybe x7; another possiblity is adjusting combo or other action to generate enmity while stance is on, similar to how they did in back then, e.g. Onslaught did generate additional aggro. In most cases, this likely changes nothing for pulls, as ranged attacks still have their own multiplier (why they still have that despite the x10 multi on stance is beyond me...).
Another approach I've seen (I think it was Lucy's idea): bake enmity generation into the tank mastery and change stance(new role stance e.g.) into a NON-tanking stance, which reduces your enmity/negates tank mastery enmity bonus. The other way around.