Thread: Dragoon 6.2 Civil discussion thread

Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Making Jumps more powerful is definitely one of the things I wish for the most, I think Jumps feel too weak when they're meant to be the unique niche of DRG.
With MNK they made the concept of a '' combo master '' a bit more of a reality, with DRG I hope they push the Jumps as the big thing where the big damage really comes from.

Taking a quick look on the job guide it’s odd that High Jump, available every 30 seconds has a potency of 400, but Spineshatter and Dragonfire at 60 and 120 seconds have 250 and 300 potency respectively, and even regular Jump has a potency of 320. That’s always been rather weird to me given how much of a big deal Dragonfire felt at level 50, but gets beaten by plain ol jump two levels later.

I am a Dragoon main, I hardly enjoy or play anything else. I love Dragoon to an insane degree. With that being said I'd also like to add my 2 cents here. I am not sure what "extensive" fixes Dragoon really needs. My main issues are everyone dragoon players issues... a change to battle litany. Problem simply is that Square Enix has "explained" some of their changes in the past... like Kaiten on samurai... removing it to battle the ongoing button bloat while stuff like 2 Shohas and 2 different 120s OGCDs exist with a tied CD. There were so many suggestions from the community on how to solve that issue without removing Kaiten and seemingly no one asked for it in the first place.

This is where my main concern comes in... what do we change on Dragoon? Will SE remove jumps? Remove positionals? Make the rotation easier? As someone who greatly enjoys optimizing Dragoon, I can think of a few changes that would be cool... however given prievous experience with XIVs way of reworks... I am quite frankly not looking forward to it. Summoner rework was nice yes... but it had all its complexity thrown out of the window, Monk rework was also... successful... after the class was notorious for being changed every other patch. So for the love of Halone, I hope that square enix doesn't do anything stupid this time... anyways here is some stuff that I think would be cool for Dragoon


Treat high jump as a projectile or gapcloser rather than a... not-gapcloser: Main issue is that its neither a gapcloser nor a ranged attack as you simply just go to the boss and then back... this savage tier I had to hold it in quite a few instances to avoid getting clipped by an attack which is annoying. So I hope that instead of being the weird thing it is right now, it becomes more reliable to use in encounters and in line with other dragoon ogcds


Shorten stardivers animation lock or fix the netcode... just so people with bad ping dont clip... can still take up 2 weave windows as I think it just makes the ability feel much cooler.

A personal or raidwide utility/defensive cooldown would be cool: Maybe we can replace dragonsight? Its not like its very unique after its lost its leash... other melees provide things that dragoon simply doesn't have... ninja has a shield, monk has mantra, reaper has a shield+raidwide regen... it would be cool for more DPS classes such as dragoon to have a bit more utility/defensive stuff


2 charges for elusive jump: dodging mechanics with this feels super satisfying and having more of it wouldn't hurt dragoon.

Thank you for your response and for throwing ideas out there! Also yeah I'm in the same boat I don't really think it needs major changes either but its worth at least trying to have a discussion so we can say we gave them a civil response to this interesting news.

Originally Posted by Kolsykol

How would you know this when you don't play MNK ( you haven't even started Pugilist )?

I mean, every rework will be '' debatable '' whether it's good or not.
Not everyone is going to like every rework.
But I think that from a mechanical viewpoint MNK is well-designed and functional.
When you understand how it plays then it flows together very nicely.

Who says I don't? I've maxed every melee job except Paladin and DRG. I will admit though that Monk was never very appealing to me, and the Endwalker rework didn't change that. By far my favorite iteration of it was during Stormblood, but Endwalker's is far superior to the rubbish we had towards late Shadowbringers especially.

SE talked about button bloating and having too many oGCDs. However, we, main DRGs, don't want our job to change because we love it.

Well, I have the perfect solution to both opinions:

Just make Spineshatter do no damage and have 2 or 3 charges (they could even be shared with Elusive jump). BOOM! perfect DRG, we supress having to weave Spineshatter and we win some mobility without touching a job which is already (almost) perfect.

What do you guys, think?

Originally Posted by Curinteru

SE talked about button bloating and having too many oGCDs. However, we, main DRGs, don't want our job to change because we love it.

Well, I have the perfect solution to both opinions:

Just make Spineshatter do no damage and have 2 or 3 charges (they could even be shared with Elusive jump). BOOM! perfect DRG, we suppress having to weave Spineshatter and we win some mobility without touching a job which is already (almost) perfect.

While I don't hate the idea, if the job is already wholly loved as is, why would removing some of its decision making and reducing its APM by a cast per minute be a good thing?

It's not as if SSD is hard to weave as is, and it still has 15 seconds' span of leniency for mobility purposes, such that between it, DFD, SD, and EJ, DRG is already quite the mobile job.

The main "problems" the devs mentioned of DRG at this point, now that Mirage Dive and Jump have been consolidated, were not that it was button bloated, but simply that it had designed itself into a wall, leaving it no apparent direction in which to further develop.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While I don't hate the idea, if the job is already wholly loved as is, why would removing some of its decision making and reducing its APM by a cast per minute be a good thing?

It's not as if SSD is hard to weave as is, and it still has 15 seconds' span of leniency for mobility purposes, such that between it, DFD, SD, and EJ, DRG is already quite the mobile job.

The main "problems" the devs mentioned of DRG at this point, now that Mirage Dive and Jump have been consolidated, were not that it was button bloated, but simply that it had designed itself into a wall, leaving it no apparent direction in which to further develop.

Personally i'd asy its a good thing because mobility abilities doing damage is bad game design imo, i was pleased when monks lost shoulder tackle, and would like to see the tanks recieve the same treatment (with new OGCD's to fill the gaps left by these skills ofc)

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While I don't hate the idea, if the job is already wholly loved as is, why would removing some of its decision making and reducing its APM by a cast per minute be a good thing?

It's not as if SSD is hard to weave as is, and it still has 15 seconds' span of leniency for mobility purposes, such that between it, DFD, SD, and EJ, DRG is already quite the mobile job.

Agreed. Making SSD a gapcloser removes 2 button presses every 2 minutes, which amounts to 8 clicks in a 6:30 minute fight. DRG is busy during even-minute bursts because of the machine-gun oGCD double weaves required, but it's honestly not overwhelming. Litany should last 20s for the DRG to make this less strict, among other things already stated in the thread. However, removing those 2 buttons for such bursts will make them feel like the odd-minute bursts, which are not particularly busy.

The difference between ShB and EW is that we press two more buttons in even-minute bursts: an extra SSD and WWT. Life Surge is included in some of these windows, but not all. In a full uptime scenario, LS coincides in the opener, in the 2-min window (this one is tight but happens pretty much automatically and after all the other buttons are already used), and in the 6-min window (although with BL up, which reduces its value). I cannot recall right now if it's up for the following ones, since there's not a full uptime fight lasting that long in the tier.

So surely two extra clicks doesn't mean that the job is too busy.

One thing though, DRG is ironically not a mobile job. Yes, we do have 5 jumps, of which 4 take us to the enemy, but the number of situations in which the jumps will coincide with a mechanic in such a way are rare, and saving jumps for such situations is a huge DPS loss.

In this tier, it happens in certain Pinax patterns in P4-1S and to return to the boss after the 2nd kick bait in Act 3 of P4-2S. In the latter scenario, EJ can be used just as well (although it admittedly requires precise timing).

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The main "problems" the devs mentioned of DRG at this point, now that Mirage Dive and Jump have been consolidated, were not that it was button bloated, but simply that it had designed itself into a wall, leaving it no apparent direction in which to further develop.

I personally think the job still has room for at least one more expansion, even though perhaps some new actions would have to be in the same button a la Phantom Kamaitachi or Plentiful Harvest. Still, if we look at most other jobs, they're all in the same boat. Which ones actually have space to put new stuff? SMN, DNC and...? Let's think about adding new stuff to NIN, SAM, DRK, GNB... where does it go?

Even so, they can be creative and rework the job around its existing kit. It's lacking more interaction between its oGCD and GCDs, so why not go there to make things a bit more cohesive?

Originally Posted by xAFROx

I have question. I keep seeing everyone suggest removing the potency from spineshatter dive, but... what's spine shattering about that? It sounds like everyone just wants one less jump ability in favor of having a gap closer along with a disengage. Reaper has that, and samurai has that, monk doesn't, and technically dragoon doesn't... is that a request for homogenization or is that viewed as nuanced design?

Not only retaining the name would be weird, but also the animation. It's a dive that points the spear towards the enemy, and it'd look really weird turned into a 0 damage gapcloser.

What they could do though is to reduce the cooldown to 30s and adjust the potency (although this'll require extra potency in other abilities to compensate for the loss of damage before the 2nd charge is learned). Now the ability fulfills mainly the role of a gapcloser, but also the role of an ability to pool for all buff windows, which would make odd windows a bit busier, but they're quite lenient as they are.

Still, my wish for SSD is a rework of its role as a damaging ability in 7.0. It's our "second" jump, it should have something more interesting to it. Same goes for our first capstone ability, DFD.

Originally Posted by Reimmi

Personally i'd asy its a good thing because mobility abilities doing damage is bad game design imo, i was pleased when monks lost shoulder tackle, and would like to see the tanks recieve the same treatment (with new OGCD's to fill the gaps left by these skills ofc)

DRG's centered around jumps and they have to deal damage. As Shurrikhan replies to you after, there's a nuance to having gapclosers retain their damage. Since their DPS contribution is low, using them to keep uptime is always more beneficial than putting an extra charge under buffs. There's a certain optimization angle here.

Yes, we could remove the damage of the oGCD gapclosers that all tanks share, for example, and it could be fine but only if something else with nuance was added instead, because otherwise the potency is removed for nothing.