Dragoon is next

[ThorneDynasty]

Funny how Yoshi-P keeps pointing out how much harder the game is on the devs as it keeps growing, but then they also want to uproot perfectly good jobs for no other reason but to make more work for themselves in the future.

[Nizzi]

Funny how Yoshi-P keeps pointing out how much harder the game is on the devs as it keeps growing, but then they also want to uproot perfectly good jobs for no other reason but to make more work for themselves in the future.

One would think the logical conclusion would be to start taking feedback from the community for the jobs/roles they find hard and have nobody on the developer team proficient in, but alas. Imagine how good these jobs could be if changes were made with the people who main them in mind rather than making them easier for the development team to balance or trying to get people with no interest in the job to play it by simplifying it to the point of ruin.

[Selvokaz]

im pretty sure you all understand the reason for wanting to reduce button bloat is because more buttons are coming in the next expansion right?
Design philosophies change, new ideas come up, and better ways of handling things are a part of those new ideas. In the next expansion you know for sure 10 more levels of leveling are coming and in those 10 levels they will likely squeeze in 5 new features with perhaps 2 of them being new buttons, and the other 3 being traits that upgrade existing buttons. This is just the ff14 formula now.

[ThorneDynasty]

im pretty sure you all understand the reason for wanting to reduce button bloat is because more buttons are coming in the next expansion right?

And you realize all the high-end content happens between the couple year period between expansions, which is the bulk of the game's life cycle and during which job engagement is a much more important factor than the few weeks when everyone is playing MSQ? We aren't even 6.2 yet, there's literally no worse time to start taking parts out of the engine on a vague promise you'll get something working in 7.0.

Design philosophies change, new ideas come up, and better ways of handling things are a part of those new ideas.

And the right time to unveil that is when you actually have something to show for it, not incremental unfinished ideas you refuse to explain even out of the game. Right now we have seen nothing better.

In the next expansion you know for sure 10 more levels of leveling are coming and in those 10 levels they will likely squeeze in 5 new features with perhaps 2 of them being new buttons, and the other 3 being traits that upgrade existing buttons. This is just the ff14 formula now.

Speaking of being willing to change design philosophies, maybe it's time to rethink the mandatory 2-extra button per expansion one? Not that every single job really had that many in 7.0 either. Dragoon for one. You can just update buttons to fancier animations and tune some quality of life stuff if there's actually nothing to fix about a job. Look at what 82-90 actually entails, "room for 5 new features" is a huge misdirect on your part - the only actual thing that even theoretically needed squeezing was Wyrmwind.

You could easily make the level 100 capstone ability just a combo move after Stardiver or Dragonfire, change fundamentally nothing about the rotation and no-one would complain. We didn't last time.

[Tlamila]

Speaking of being willing to change design philosophies, maybe it's time to rethink the mandatory 2-extra button per expansion one? Not that every single job really had that many in 7.0 either. Dragoon for one. You can just update buttons to fancier animations and tune some quality of life stuff if there's actually nothing to fix about a job. Look at what 82-90 actually entails, "room for 5 new features" is a huge misdirect on your part - the only actual thing that even theoretically needed squeezing was Wyrmwind.

You could easily make the level 100 capstone ability just a combo move after Stardiver or Dragonfire, change fundamentally nothing about the rotation and no-one would complain. We didn't last time.

This honestly. I don't get why we need new skills every expansion, at this point, or a big rework. Changing animations and adding some functionalities to existing skills is enough imho. See for example sheltron becoming holy sheltron, or the upgrade to say Intevention. Nothing removed and no new buttons there, but a great functionality improvement that gave something fresh. And the new skills PLD got all went on the same button we had before.

So no, you don't need to delete skills that were just fine just to add new ones in each expansion, and even if you add skills they don't need to be on new buttons.
And you also don't need to rework a class that works fine as it is just because "gotta keep it new". That's what the new classes are for.

[LeonKeyh]

im pretty sure you all understand the reason for wanting to reduce button bloat is because more buttons are coming in the next expansion right?
Design philosophies change, new ideas come up, and better ways of handling things are a part of those new ideas. In the next expansion you know for sure 10 more levels of leveling are coming and in those 10 levels they will likely squeeze in 5 new features with perhaps 2 of them being new buttons, and the other 3 being traits that upgrade existing buttons. This is just the ff14 formula now.

And you realize all the high-end content happens between the couple year period between expansions, which is the bulk of the game's life cycle and during which job engagement is a much more important factor than the few weeks when everyone is playing MSQ? We aren't even 6.2 yet

This says it better than I could. Keep in mind that originally the DRG/AST reworks were supposed to be implemented next month. The next expansion is a year and a half away. If they want to rework everything to make room for 2 more buttons, why not just wait until 7.0 to do everything they planned to do? (Like they did with SMN).

It seems silly to give people new abilities and then 2 patches later take them away and simplify the job for the rest (i.e. more than half) of the expansion.

Speaking of being willing to change design philosophies, maybe it's time to rethink the mandatory 2-extra button per expansion one? Not that every single job really had that many in 7.0 either. Dragoon for one. You can just update buttons to fancier animations and tune some quality of life stuff if there's actually nothing to fix about a job. Look at what 82-90 actually entails, "room for 5 new features" is a huge misdirect on your part - the only actual thing that even theoretically needed squeezing was Wyrmwind.

You could easily make the level 100 capstone ability just a combo move after Stardiver or Dragonfire, change fundamentally nothing about the rotation and no-one would complain. We didn't last time.

Agreed here. I get that it's difficult balancing "add new stuff with "having room (both hotbar, and job design) for new stuff". Most people who are at the point where they're lvl 80+ would be fine with some changes/upgrades to existing abilities, e.g. Dragonfire Dive getting a DoT, combo abilities like you mention (though, they would need to be careful with some jobs to make sure they continue to fit into burst windows and they don't create another GNB), give charges to abilities, etc.

DRG could easily be "Spineshatter Dive is replaced by Dragonspineshatter Dive when entering life of the Dragon" or something along those lines. People aren't looking for huge changes, and these "Press another button every 1-2 minutes" additions really aren't as much as they think it is.

[Selvokaz]

And you realize all the high-end content happens between the couple year period between expansions, which is the bulk of the game's life cycle and during which job engagement is a much more important factor than the few weeks when everyone is playing MSQ? We aren't even 6.2 yet, there's literally no worse time to start taking parts out of the engine on a vague promise you'll get something working in 7.0.

And the right time to unveil that is when you actually have something to show for it, not incremental unfinished ideas you refuse to explain even out of the game. Right now we have seen nothing better.

Speaking of being willing to change design philosophies, maybe it's time to rethink the mandatory 2-extra button per expansion one? Not that every single job really had that many in 7.0 either. Dragoon for one. You can just update buttons to fancier animations and tune some quality of life stuff if there's actually nothing to fix about a job. Look at what 82-90 actually entails, "room for 5 new features" is a huge misdirect on your part - the only actual thing that even theoretically needed squeezing was Wyrmwind.

You could easily make the level 100 capstone ability just a combo move after Stardiver or Dragonfire, change fundamentally nothing about the rotation and no-one would complain. We didn't last time.

1.) Except they didn't change anything, and they've been playing with the potency of abilities since the first patch.
2.) Again nothing has changed, and how brass of you to assume they don't have this all planned out. They didn't take one or two skills out and leave nothing, then 2 patches later add 1 new skill, then tweak that skill over the next several patches before going back to the drawing board and resetting everything. What you're getting at is paramount to hyperbole. They don't say anything about what they are looking to do because of how you're acting right now.
3.) I'm not even addressing this, talk to the Devs on Instagram if you want to have that conversation.

I get why people play a game that has been changing ever since 1.0 and think nothing will ever change for them? O_o?
Like literally what are you people even talking about? Dragoon has undergone several huge changes since its inception, and guess what it will continue to do so go going forward. More buttons, less buttons, longer strings, shorter strings, what you're arguing over is small in the larger scope of the job itself. Hypothetically if you know the burst window the entire rotation is 2 minutes, then you in theory already know how many skills can be used in a rotation right? They literally have to make changes in order to NOT cap themselves when doing further development and adding new things, unless you really want those burst windows to grow longer, which would slow down gameplay which is something some already criticize about.

[VentVanitas]

Again nothing has changed, and how brass of you to assume they don't have this all planned out.

You actually think they plan things out for job changes? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[butchersblock]

Hypothetically if you know the burst window the entire rotation is 2 minutes, then you in theory already know how many skills can be used in a rotation right? They literally have to make changes in order to NOT cap themselves when doing further development and adding new things, unless you really want those burst windows to grow longer, which would slow down gameplay which is something some already criticize about.

This alone tells me you have no idea what you're talking about

You can hit a dummy for a hour and still not learn the rotation. And going dummy to boss are two different things.
Can a dummy help, yes. Do they fix bloat, no.

if you're unable to learn the basics of a rotation after hours of hitting the dummy, maybe you're the issue and not the job? At no point does the game force you to fully grasp any job, and almost all content (EVEN INCLUDING SAVAGE) can be cleared pressing nothing but 1 2 and 3. There is nothing to be gained from kneecapping jobs so you can feel better about yourself. It actively hurts the game for those willing to put in the time and effort to learn the jobs.

[CelestiCer]

snip

Couldn't agree more

These people... So many rehash the same argument to defend Button Bloat... I'm almost convinced they're bots at this point. Compare their reused argument point and apply it to say...

• Chess removing a key piece like the Rooks and Bishops
• Basketball without traveling and prohibiting dunking
• Baseball making the ball twice as large
• Football prohibiting running and removing the Goalpost
• Soccer without goalkeepers and making the Goal twice as big
• FPS games and removing vulnerable target spots like head for headshots
• League of Legends and remove the R button and passives
• Fighting Games and removing projectiles/blocking/parrying/animation canceling
• Real-Time-Strategy games and removing the need to harvest resources
• PvP-MMO's with their Crowd-Control system removed
• Boxing and removing all left punches
• Chocolate Cake and remove all the... Chocolate?

( PS: I don't even know sports! )

Taking away key components of a Job or Gameplay purely to take stuff away? is a poor argument for gameplay improvement or tackling the so called Button Bloat issue, that's been reused more then the " 500 Gil hooker at Limsa-square ". These people need to Stop... just... just stop... with these horrible takes...