Dragoon is next

[Tlamila]

who said you want enjoy the rework though? personally a bandaid is best removed quickly in one go, get the pain over and done with.

The whole history of reworks in the last few years, especially in this expansion, says it.

[GoatOfWar]

Probably going to remove button bloat.

Didn't they say the same about summoner? Look how that went lol. Summoner has like 6 buttons now.

[LeonKeyh]

There ARE some things that they can to do clean up the job that won't change things too much. I _doubt_ that will be it. Every time Work 2 Game mentions the possibility of Dragoon having a Dragon pet like in FFXI I shudder and disappointingly come to terms that it's going to be something like that, or worse... Here's some predictions if it's not changing much (unlikely):

1. Remove Wheeling Thrust/Fang and Claw from hotbars and have it replace True Thrust like Raiden Thrust does. So instead of the Heavens' Thrust combo being 1-2-3-4-5-1 it would essentially be 1-2-3-1-1-1. Yes, it simplifies, yes, it's kinda shitty, but really if they're looking to make room, this is a nice easy way of doing it.

2. Reduce the number of distinct jumps - Make them all do AE damage, Keep Spineshatter, give it 4 charges (Remove Dragonfire, High Jump, and Star Diver). When you use it you get a 5 sec buff to use Mirage Dive if it's up, if you enter Life of the Dragon then Stardiver replaces Spineshatter until you use it.

3. Make Wyrmwind Thrust Replace Raiden Thrust during that cycle and add the potencies together

4. Clean up AE stuff for everyone and just make all abilities do AE damage

5. Drop Life Surge (basically is a shitty Kaiten)



That drops off 7 abilities if you don't do anything with AEs. I'd say that's plenty of room to grow the job with no significant changes. But, I think that SE should seriously consider my #4, at least for non-healer jobs. AE kits in most (all) jobs are anemic, boring, and taking up almost a third of the real estate on hot bars.

If they changed it so that all abilities are either full AE or are single target with fall off damage (e.g. Wyrmwind Thrust) and get rid of AE specific abilities I feel like that would clean up quite a few jobs. There would be exceptions, I don't think that you could fully do it with SAM, specifically Tenka Goken (Though, I can certainly think of a few things to do with that, e.g. a debuff like Death's Design). But, SAM has a shit ton of abilities that should be merged anyway (e.g. Shoha/Shoha II, Shinten/Kyuten, Guren/Senei, Iaijutsu/Tsubame-gaeshi, etc, etc, etc)

-snip- If people remember, the whole point of the Kaiten removal was to 'reduce button bloat'-

I just hope that we can come together and call out that bullshit if it happens. Kaiten's removal reason has been questioned as a misunderstanding/mistranslation but whatever they meant, this was a shitty way of handling it. Some people say that it was "Button bloat" i.e. hotbar space (Which, I could EASILY, remove 5-6 buttons from SAM's hotbars without changing the job AT ALL, so that's bull) and other people say it's "Action bloat" i.e. number of buttons you have to press for a perfect rotation (Which, again is bull OR the first of a set of changes, because now instead of casting 5 Kaitens, you're casting 4 Shintens, that's not really reducing anything UNLESS the plan is to also reduce Kenki generation)

[CelestiCer]

For the sake of bumping this Thread and my stupid curiosity...

Are there any Dragoons genuinely wanting " Any " of the following changes to happen to their Job? Did anyone even request the following?

• DRG gets SMN Rework treatment
• DRG gets Button Bloat treatment ruining DRG Gauge
• DRG gets Auto-Crit treatment
• DRG gets overhauled, simplified, homogenized

Followed with SE's " Oh-so-not-empty-promise ", of ripping off/ removing current DRG skills and leaving DRG like that for patches/months/years in the hopes they replace it with something new and improved that we won't get to see until... well " eventually ".

I don't know any DRG's jumping off their chairs going " Finally!! Been waiting for this!! ", cause most I know don't want their DRG to be reworked into some wheelchair Job. But, I am curious.

[butchersblock]

There ARE some things that they can to do clean up the job that won't change things too much. I _doubt_ that will be it. Every time Work 2 Game mentions the possibility of Dragoon having a Dragon pet like in FFXI I shudder and disappointingly come to terms that it's going to be something like that, or worse... Here's some predictions if it's not changing much (unlikely):

1. Remove Wheeling Thrust/Fang and Claw from hotbars and have it replace True Thrust like Raiden Thrust does. So instead of the Heavens' Thrust combo being 1-2-3-4-5-1 it would essentially be 1-2-3-1-1-1. Yes, it simplifies, yes, it's kinda shitty, but really if they're looking to make room, this is a nice easy way of doing it.

2. Reduce the number of distinct jumps - Make them all do AE damage, Keep Spineshatter, give it 4 charges (Remove Dragonfire, High Jump, and Star Diver). When you use it you get a 5 sec buff to use Mirage Dive if it's up, if you enter Life of the Dragon then Stardiver replaces Spineshatter until you use it.

3. Make Wyrmwind Thrust Replace Raiden Thrust during that cycle and add the potencies together

4. Clean up AE stuff for everyone and just make all abilities do AE damage

5. Drop Life Surge (basically is a shitty Kaiten)



That drops off 7 abilities if you don't do anything with AEs. I'd say that's plenty of room to grow the job with no significant changes. But, I think that SE should seriously consider my #4, at least for non-healer jobs. AE kits in most (all) jobs are anemic, boring, and taking up almost a third of the real estate on hot bars.

If they changed it so that all abilities are either full AE or are single target with fall off damage (e.g. Wyrmwind Thrust) and get rid of AE specific abilities I feel like that would clean up quite a few jobs. There would be exceptions, I don't think that you could fully do it with SAM, specifically Tenka Goken (Though, I can certainly think of a few things to do with that, e.g. a debuff like Death's Design). But, SAM has a shit ton of abilities that should be merged anyway (e.g. Shoha/Shoha II, Shinten/Kyuten, Guren/Senei, Iaijutsu/Tsubame-gaeshi, etc, etc, etc)



I just hope that we can come together and call out that bullshit if it happens. Kaiten's removal reason has been questioned as a misunderstanding/mistranslation but whatever they meant, this was a shitty way of handling it. Some people say that it was "Button bloat" i.e. hotbar space (Which, I could EASILY, remove 5-6 buttons from SAM's hotbars without changing the job AT ALL, so that's bull) and other people say it's "Action bloat" i.e. number of buttons you have to press for a perfect rotation (Which, again is bull OR the first of a set of changes, because now instead of casting 5 Kaitens, you're casting 4 Shintens, that's not really reducing anything UNLESS the plan is to also reduce Kenki generation)

Man those changes would suck. How about we just not remove anything in the middle of an expansion

[fulminating]

If it was still possible to miss out on raiden thrust, I'd not necessarily object to having raiden disembowel/raiden vorpal thrust added on, but there doesn't seem to be much point if you have to actively try to not proc draconian fire.

All it really achieves is a slightly weaker first hit in the opener. I really don't want dragoon to be butchered like summoner or made into a copy of the inferior reaper. If anything, reaper needs to have a look at dragoon and take a bit of inspiration, particularly for leveling. Autocrits might not necessarily be bad depending on what exactly this rework entails, but it seems rather silly to give autocrits to the job that brings little battany and also has life surge and I don't really have much faith in the crit rework solving more problems than it causes. Barring piercing fang, I can't really see any rotation button being removed without pretty bad consequences, or a complete rework like I already said I wouldn't want.

But you know, Scholar/Summoner/Warrior/Dragoon, it's not like they're kind to the jobs I play.

[LeonKeyh]

Man those changes would suck. How about we just not remove anything in the middle of an expansion

They're not removing anything at in the middle of the expansion, and yes, these changes would suck but they would be the LEAST possible sucky thing that I could think about them doing given their goal. Trust me, 7.0 will be so much worse.

For the sake of bumping this Thread and my stupid curiosity...

Are there any Dragoons genuinely wanting " Any " of the following changes to happen to their Job? Did anyone even request the following?

• DRG gets SMN Rework treatment
• DRG gets Button Bloat treatment ruining DRG Gauge
• DRG gets Auto-Crit treatment
• DRG gets overhauled, simplified, homogenized

Followed with SE's " Oh-so-not-empty-promise ", of ripping off/ removing current DRG skills and leaving DRG like that for patches/months/years in the hopes they replace it with something new and improved that we won't get to see until... well " eventually ".

I don't know any DRG's jumping off their chairs going " Finally!! Been waiting for this!! ", cause most I know don't want their DRG to be reworked into some wheelchair Job. But, I am curious.

Nobody who plays DRG wants any of these, but SE claims that they need to rework DRG in order to grow it further. i.e. "We need to take 10 things away from you so we can give 2 things back next expansion."

[ThorneDynasty]

Funny how Yoshi-P keeps pointing out how much harder the game is on the devs as it keeps growing, but then they also want to uproot perfectly good jobs for no other reason but to make more work for themselves in the future.

[Nizzi]

Funny how Yoshi-P keeps pointing out how much harder the game is on the devs as it keeps growing, but then they also want to uproot perfectly good jobs for no other reason but to make more work for themselves in the future.

One would think the logical conclusion would be to start taking feedback from the community for the jobs/roles they find hard and have nobody on the developer team proficient in, but alas. Imagine how good these jobs could be if changes were made with the people who main them in mind rather than making them easier for the development team to balance or trying to get people with no interest in the job to play it by simplifying it to the point of ruin.

[Selvokaz]

im pretty sure you all understand the reason for wanting to reduce button bloat is because more buttons are coming in the next expansion right?
Design philosophies change, new ideas come up, and better ways of handling things are a part of those new ideas. In the next expansion you know for sure 10 more levels of leveling are coming and in those 10 levels they will likely squeeze in 5 new features with perhaps 2 of them being new buttons, and the other 3 being traits that upgrade existing buttons. This is just the ff14 formula now.