The unbalanced reliance on fight design to make combat interesting

[Xephna]

Title's a mouthful so I'll elaborate here.

I think the horse's pretty dead at this point and everyone here knows the corner that SE has designed themselves into when it comes to combat content.

Combat is getting stale and IMHO, the fundamental problem is because of the shifting of agency away from the player. Let me just try and list some generic "methods" that a player can engage in combat with enemies in other RPGs:

1. Critical hits
2. Single target damage
3. AOE damage
4. Accuracy
5. Skill/talent trees
6. Element advantage/weakness
7. Damage types (blunt/slash/pierce/maim)
8. Stuns
9. Silences
10. Meaningful Buffs/Debuffs
11. RNG (god forbid)
12. Dot mechanics
13. Aggro management
14. Resource management ala Mana, Stamina(TP)


However for the majority of this game's combat content, there's only.... damage. All your buttons are just different places to press for more damage. GCDs? Damage. oGCDs? More damage. Abilities? Yet even more damage. Everyone is being funneled into a "press all your buttons at the 2m mark" gameplay. How is this fun?

Now we list some done to death mechanics in this game:
1. AOEs
2. Tethers
3. Stacks
4. Spreads
5. Role specific spread/stack

Now what do they all have in common? That's right. Movement. That's all this game's combat boils down to. Deal damage while moving in predefined locations at predefined intervals. And that's the crux of the problem with this game's combat design as of this post. There are only so many ways you can mix the above mechanics until players catch on that they're all the same mechanics mixed in a different way, because there's simply no other way to have interactivity between the players and the boss.

There's now a paradox. There's not much a player can do to interact with the enemies, but there's also nothing new that they can put into fights other than more movement patterns. This is why the combat is getting stale, really quickly. It's all movement movement movement.

Thoughts?

TLDR: Players don't have many ways to interact with fights other than damage, while fights only consist of movement mechanics, therefore combat is quickly getting stale.

[pikalovr]

hell i'll take it one step further and say we can't even have unique indicators for mechanics that are spammed really anymore look at what they did to my boy purple AOE in crystal tower

[Leonerdo]

I dunno. I sorta agree (at the end of my comment), but... There's still a decent amount of interesting things you can do just with AoEs, tethers, towers, and movement. They've done a good job of changing up the patterns, visual tells, and timing to make each fight unique (to a degree, obviously debatable). Each fight is like a choreographed dance, and learning that dance to perfection is fun, for me at least.

More importantly though, I think FFXIV stays away from the all the build variety, CCs, damage types, etc. in an attempt to keep the game more.... I don't wanna say accessible... but more appreciable, without spending hours researching build guides and planning a bunch of specific combos for your team (to utilize all those niche abilities with extra effects that aren't pure damage). Instead you can just jump into a fight and start practicing. Most everything you learn (beyond basic rotations and raidbuff alignment), you learn by watching the boss and practicing the footwork. I imagine that's more engaging for a lot of people, especially those who aren't into old RPGs. Ya'know, the traditional ones (mostly turn-based), that rely on having a bunch of complicated systems to keep you engaged. Unlike other MMOs, FFXIV has made a clear choice to steer away from it's traditional RPG roots. Instead of complex and open-ended, it's more actiony, less abstract, and easier to get into.

I do think there's some room for more aggro management and CC though. Adds are so rare in boss fights, but I think even the most basic ones can make a fight a lot more interesting. Just having a use for AoE abilities outside of dungeons is nice. I actually really liked the add phase in E8S, cause there were a lot of little optimizations to help you clear it early in the tier. But it wasn't strictly necessary for casual players to figure all that out; they could just come in later with better gear.

[Brightamethyst]

Some of those things actually used to exist but were removed because they caused more issues than they solved.

Damage types, for example. Time was swords were slashing damage, fists were blunt, bows and spears were piercing, etc. Problem is it meant some comps were basically required in order to work. DRGs had a debuff that increased piercing damage but BRDs did not, so BRDs basically had to be paired with DRGs at all times or their damage was drastically nerfed. Same with stuns. In 2.0 stun/interrupt mechanics were fairly common, but also very annoying because of how easy it was to accidentally trigger the DR and completely screw the whole party.

The current state of the game isn't some first try failed experiment. It's many years worth of evolution and redesigning the systems as both the devs and the players figure out what works and what doesn't.

Now what do they all have in common? That's right. Movement. That's all this game's combat boils down to.

When it comes to mechanics, movement is the great equalizer. Tankbusters mean nothing to DPS, positionals mean nothing to healers, unavoidable AoE is only relevant to healers, etc. Movement on the other hand affects all players at the same time, regardless of role. It's an easy way to involve the entire party with a single mechanic.

[Stepjam]

hell i'll take it one step further and say we can't even have unique indicators for mechanics that are spammed really anymore look at what they did to my boy purple AOE in crystal tower

There's a reason for that. If you make the indicators unique for every fight, then initially you gotta guess what any given indicator means. Do you stack with it? Do you run away with it? It's trial and error. But by standardizing indicators, the guesswork is removed. We can see something and say "Yes, we stack that" or "Yes, we spread that". And with that basic work done, they can start doing other stuff with the unified markers. For your average dungeon fight, they can start doing more complicated mechanics right off the bat because they don't need to teach you what X indicator means.

[pikalovr]

There's a reason for that. If you make the indicators unique for every fight, then initially you gotta guess what any given indicator means. Do you stack with it? Do you run away with it? It's trial and error. But by standardizing indicators, the guesswork is removed. We can see something and say "Yes, we stack that" or "Yes, we spread that". And with that basic work done, they can start doing other stuff with the unified markers. For your average dungeon fight, they can start doing more complicated mechanics right off the bat because they don't need to teach you what X indicator means.

my guy you've had 50 levels of "training" by this point there was no reason to change the AOE. and it would be a great indicator (pun not intended) that there will be unique indicators and you will have to learn what they do through trial and error sometimes and thats 100% ok. not every marker should be universal, throw in the occasional odd ball to really throw players for a loop. like the numbered mechanics they're typically different depending on the mechanic and you have to learn what the numbers are for and thats 100% ok. most of the time you wipe once or twice and understand at least what the mechanic does. so no the "standardize" change argument doesn't hold up cause it's a good oddball and even has an AOE around it. which already narrows down it's intended mechanics spread from the parties or stack with the parties and doing either or you'll see you were right or wrong without costing the entire AR a wipe cause the little hill still appears even if everyone on the AOE dies even if all three players huddle on top of each other you'll still have people who will think it's a stay away and stay out and potentially save the raid

wiping to learn mechanics is ok and i don't get people have this phobia of wiping in game it's perfectly normal you wipe you go over what you need to or what you learned you come up with a plan you repull repeat. thats literally what MMORPGs are supposed to be about COMMUNICATION and PLAYER INTERACTIONS not just 8 guys silently repulling the boss cause maybe one guy messed up a keep away mechanic and they just assume he'll get it right this time

[pikalovr]

Some of those things actually used to exist but were removed because they caused more issues than they solved.

Damage types, for example. Time was swords were slashing damage, fists were blunt, bows and spears were piercing, etc. Problem is it meant some comps were basically required in order to work. DRGs had a debuff that increased piercing damage but BRDs did not, so BRDs basically had to be paired with DRGs at all times or their damage was drastically nerfed. Same with stuns. In 2.0 stun/interrupt mechanics were fairly common, but also very annoying because of how easy it was to accidentally trigger the DR and completely screw the whole party.

The current state of the game isn't some first try failed experiment. It's many years worth of evolution and redesigning the systems as both the devs and the players figure out what works and what doesn't.



When it comes to mechanics, movement is the great equalizer. Tankbusters mean nothing to DPS, positionals mean nothing to healers, unavoidable AoE is only relevant to healers, etc. Movement on the other hand affects all players at the same time, regardless of role. It's an easy way to involve the entire party with a single mechanic.

i'll argue the fact it was gutted far too quickly they could've really had a nice system going same with cross classing but they approached it poorly and instead of fixing their mistakes just threw it in the bin like they do most things. pet AI and ghosting occuring? bin it, aggro being more on DPS and healers than tanks? bin it can't figure out that maybe BRd should be able to also buff pierving damage so he could be brought in not only alongside a DRG? bin it (even tho i'd argue needing pairings or more of jobs is actually far more interesting than every role can basically be self sufficient and can work with any other job cause we can't anyone stepping on anyone elses toes clearly)

what you call a game built on redesigns and "evolution" i call a game that bins anything difficult to deal with (despite them having easy solutions) and DEVOLVES the combat. just look at healers AST when it was reworked lost both the option to use all 3 redraws when it wanted to and sleeve draw things that added to the complexity and potential skill ceiling of the job now you sit here and tell me thats evolving combat?

[Urist]

Movement. That's all this game's combat boils down to.

Yep.

All of the mechanics you first listed are fun to interact with, but difficult to balance, if the developers want to maintain gameplay that is accessible for those not familiar with an MMORPG.

Solutions to gameplay challenges cannot be too specific or obscure; in this context, it may just be a skill that doesn't get used regularly in a damage rotation. The risk is in having players forget what they're supposed to do, or what abilities they even have. This game is played online, with combat conducted in real time. Not everyone is capable of going through combat with ease: see all the BLMs that forget to cast their very-powerful AoE Sleep on key enemies, even in the easiest class/job story content, despite being specifically told to do so by the quest NPC. Many players attest to anxiety when in "important" roles such as tank or healer. You will not be able to rely on these players to interrupt powerful casts, or to control and separate enemies.

For the simplest example which still exists in the current game: if there is a key mechanic that requires an interrupt to resolve, then you risk having a single point of failure (tank, Interject), unless you bring a redundant physical ranged as backup. Some older content allows for stuns, but stun resistance makes it possible for the solution to become invalid. Meanwhile, if this key mechanic does not kill the group outright, it becomes a healer mechanic. (failed mech cleanup does seem to be the actual role of healers lol)

I remember it being said by the developers that XIV was intended to be a "Final Fantasy" title first, and an MMORPG second. I don't have extensive experience with the franchise, but I do know much (most?) of it consists of turn-based, single-player combat. The same folks who like to take time and consider their next action must play at a level that results in acceptable performance by the general playerbase. The bar has to be set low for the sake of this goal.

There is room, within encounter design, for mechanics which might require more specific abilities, even if only in higher-difficulty content; however, the current state of (PvE) job design means that, by ability count alone, it may be difficult to fit in abilities which would interact with enemy status and activity. If room was made for the sake of this, it would result in an odd situation in which a whole sub-set of abilities is never used, due to being not useful, in normal-difficulty story content.

You are right that it gets stale very quickly. "Choreographed dance" is an apt description, and not something I'm personally interested in. I think I'll probably finish playing through the story again via NG+ and then let my sub lapse until a major content patch, or even the next expansion...

[pikalovr]

people really out here saying the circus tower AOe should've been changed to the generic stack marker. to those of you i ask why? why was it necessary to change that one little marker? not why it was ok to or anything like that, but why was it NECESSARY? especiallly when it worked perfectly fine all these years prior

[Brightamethyst]

especiallly when it worked perfectly fine all these years prior

It did? I can't even count the number of times I've seen people get the black circle, and run away from everyone, and die, because there's no way to tell it's a stack marker unless someone tells you (and even then people still run off and die.) The fact that everyone put up with it doesn't make it good.

You have to remember that the super consistent markers we have now didn't always exist. Some things were consistent (dragon in, ram out was just as true 9 years ago as it is today) but for the most part markers were completely random and there was no way to tell what a mechanic was until you mysteriously died to it. Standardized markers were introduced to help alleviate some of that frustration. Yes, there's something to be said for the challenge of figuring out mechanics and learning a fight as you go, but that only works once. The second, third, eighty fifth time you fight a boss it's not a puzzle any more. It's just an annoying situation of trying to remember "am I supposed to stack or run away from this marker on this fight?"