Rewritten MSQ - Garlemald and EW

[KizuyaKatogami]

Almost everybody in this thread, including yours truly, has had "numerous posters" that have problems with them. That's kind of the nature of forums where tribalism is common. Everybody gets the dogpiling eventually, whether deserved or not.

Well that’s my point though. It’s not a one sided thing a majority of the people in the community do it. People naturally will ignore the horrible things the people on their side say and object and intervene when someone on the opposing side is defending themselves. In the case of where it’s involved me i specifically point out the double standard and get no response seemingly because they know what they’re doing is wrong and have no excuse for it other than “they support my points therefore i need to white knight for them.”

[IkaraGreydancer]

I was talking about the person who was calling me uneducated, not you. But if you are here refusing to call out that sort of behavior on your own side, then your complaints about no one on my side calling me out ring hollow. I respond respectfully to people who speak respectfully to me, unfortunately people are rarely that. Just look through this thread and you'll see nothing but shade.

I did say calling people uneducated n such is wrong, yet folks have already gotten on him for that. Dude doesn't need person number 6 to tell him to chill tf out (not unless he keeps it up ofc). And let's say folks are indeed being disrespectful. What is gained from being the same way back? (and I say this as someone who falls short of this at times as well). Being toxic to toxicity only breeds more toxicity. It's clear there's split here between the sides. It's just from my view certain things get passes on particular sides while others don't. That's only an opinion. Same with your view

[CrownySuccubus]

Well that’s my point though. It’s not a one sided thing a majority of the people in the community do it. People naturally will ignore the horrible things the people on their side say and object and intervene when someone on the opposing side is defending themselves. In the case of where it’s involved me i specifically point out the double standard and get no response seemingly because they know what they’re doing is wrong and have no excuse for it other than “they support my points therefore i need to white knight for them.”

I'm going to be honest -- I don't ever recall you doing it. Let alone for people "on your side". Usually, when I see "double standards" called out, it's based on superficial similarities on things that aren't comparable as a "Whatabout".

Granted, I'm not in every thread at once and I'm speaking from personal POV, but still....based on that, definitely not.

[Theodric]

I've commented on this issue before:

At the end of the day, it's just a video game. One many of us are varying degrees of passionate about, certainly, though I personally don't care for rivalries to form over something that is entirely fictional. As such, my stance has ever been to agree to disagree where common ground cannot be found. I don't care for endless arguments over morality and I'd like to think I've made it perfectly clear that if anyone has a problem with me, then they're very welcome to come and talk it out in a civil manner.

I like working out and discussing the 'how' and 'why' things happen in the way that they do in any given story or historical event, though my personal preferences drift towards characters and factions that have lofty stakes over those that have everything work out to their benefit most of the time.

One thing I noticed, however, was that some pretty spiteful and nasty accusations were aimed at anyone who ever dared to speak up in favour of the antagonists. This included death threats, homophobic comments and other unpleasant elements. Given that the offending posts were deleted, however, then such will have to be taken with a pinch of salt - though I'd like to think those who are being genuine and who have been around for a while will be aware of what I'm speaking of. Especially since some of the offending comments leaked into Reddit, Twitter and certain Discord servers.
The most fascinating thing I observed was that certain posters would repeatedly launch thinly veiled attacks and sometimes direct personal attacks at fans of the antagonists, implying all manner of horrible things about their person and real world morality. When finally those being assaulted had enough, even a minor quip in response would be treated as some deeply horrific crime and personal attack.

I will say that things have improved somewhat since then. Right around the same time that the game itself revealed that, yes, actually there was more to the Ascians and Garleans all along.

Ultimately any given individual is going to have their personal preferences and interests. I've never suggested that anyone has to like specific characters or factions. I only ask that the same courtesy is extended to others in turn.

In closing, I'd also note that the game attracts players from many different countries, cultures, backgrounds and belief systems. We all have different life experiences, so that is going to influence what we like and we don't like.

I bolded the most relevant portion since that's often the most applicable and it extends to many other issues such as criticism of the story being seen as worthy of personal attacks.

Furthermore, the concept of 'whataboutism' is almost always simply used to deflect from the fact that someone is going around deliberately provoking posters only to proclaim that any pushback in response is the worst thing ever and that any mention of the act leading to the response is somehow suddenly irrelevant even if it took place in the same thread.

[CrownySuccubus]

Furthermore, the concept of 'whataboutism' is almost always simply used to deflect from the fact that someone is going around deliberately provoking posters only to proclaim that any pushback in response is the worst thing ever and that any mention of the act leading to the response is somehow suddenly irrelevant even if it took place in the same thread.

No. "Whataboutism" is a deliberate attempt to compare an apple to a banana to claim that one viewpoint has equal validity to another. As someone else pointed out in a different thread, it's a superficial deontological argument that tries to claim that "if you claim X is a bad thing, then that means it must be bad ALL the time, no matter what". Such as claiming that if killing is wrong, then it's equally wrong for someone to kill an axe-wielding serial killer in self-defense. That is a "whataboutism".

[SentioftheHoukai]

I've commented on this issue before:



I bolded the most relevant portion since that's often the most applicable and it extends to many other issues such as criticism of the story being seen as worthy of personal attacks.

Furthermore, the concept of 'whataboutism' is almost always simply used to deflect from the fact that someone is going around deliberately provoking posters only to proclaim that any pushback in response is the worst thing ever and that any mention of the act leading to the response is somehow suddenly irrelevant even if it took place in the same thread.

Theodric has the right of it here. SO. MANY. TIMES. have those who love Endwalker and Hydaelyn, and hate Emet-Selch and the Ascians Three, anything Ancient, Zodiark etc. not nearly as subtly as they like to think implied that we who like Garlemald or the Ascians for any reason at all are actually supporters of fascism and genocide in real life and I'm so sick of it. It's sickeningly ironic, seeing as how I possess many qualities irl, up to and including my sexuality and gender identity that the real Nazis would stone me to death for if they were granted the power to do so.

Frankly, I can't take anymore of this 'you guys are oh so terrible and we are such innocent widdle angels' shit over someone else's dislike of your favorite video game character. What is so evil about our differing opinions that the Ever Faithful Hounds of Hydaelyn have to dogpile us and rip our flesh to pieces every time we have the gall to post a provisional 'MSQ revision' and hide it under the guise of 'lore correction' or other such tripe?

[IkaraGreydancer]

Theodric has the right of it here. SO. MANY. TIMES. have those who love Endwalker and Hydaelyn, and hate Emet-Selch and the Ascians Three, anything Ancient, Zodiark etc. not nearly as subtly as they like to think implied that we who like Garlemald or the Ascians for any reason at all are actually supporters of fascism and genocide in real life and I'm so sick of it. It's sickeningly ironic, seeing as how I possess many qualities irl, up to and including my sexuality and gender identity that the real Nazis would stone me to death for if they were granted the power to do so.

Frankly, I can't take anymore of this 'you guys are oh so terrible and we are such innocent widdle angels' shit over someone else's dislike of your favorite video game character. What is so evil about our differing opinions that the Ever Faithful Hounds of Hydaelyn have to dogpile us and rip our flesh to pieces every time we have the gall to post a provisional 'MSQ revision' and hide it under the guise of 'lore correction' or other such tripe?

You outta chill out...

[aveyond-dreams]

I mean she isn't wrong about them speaking over others' ideas of "what could have been" by citing and wielding lore to suit whatever argument they are making. Imagining things as if they were different is kind of the whole point. I have a lot more respect for people who are honest enough to say that they like or dislike certain characters and that is why they like or dislike what the story did with them. It gets tiresome when one says "I wish they took things in this direction" and then you have a bunch of people typing paragraphs in protest, sometimes subtly implying things about others.

I do not believe that Endwalker was as well-crafted in terms of its story as Shadowbringers. I do not believe that it effectively used each character to their full potential, and that it was more concerned with overt messaging than providing an entertaining experience. I do not pick a theme and then write a story around that theme, I come up with things I want to write down and if a theme naturally arises from that sequence of events then so be it - better yet if such things are left to the reader's interpretation rather than me having to spell everything out like Endwalker did.

[IkaraGreydancer]

I mean she isn't wrong about them speaking over others' ideas of "what could have been" by citing and wielding lore to suit whatever argument they are making. Imagining things as if they were different is kind of the whole point. I have a lot more respect for people who are honest enough to say that they like or dislike certain characters and that is why they like or dislike what the story did with them. It gets tiresome when one says "I wish they took things in this direction" and then you have a bunch of people typing paragraphs in protest, sometimes subtly implying things about others.

I do not believe that Endwalker was as well-crafted in terms of its story as Shadowbringers. I do not believe that it effectively used each character to their full potential, and that it was more concerned with overt messaging than providing an entertaining experience.

People being talked over happens all the time here. It's not exactly cool to like EWs story here as 100 folks will come out siting their reasons why it's bad to them. It's why you don't see many if any positive threads on the first pages of the OF.

That being said, this person went WAY left field with the fascist n genocide stuff. I've yet to see anybody claim that about folks here, if anything most of what I see are folks saying you can't be ok with one and not the other. Sexuality, gender identity...nazis, tearing of flesh? They're clearly tripping rn and no point in defending it like that's not the case.

Plus...I've also seen you jump on folks who express favorable opinions of Graha Tia so...sort of an odd take

[aveyond-dreams]

Possibly people speak out against the quality of Endwalker's story because there are a lot of concrete things to point to in its structure and use of plot devices like time travel and memory wipes instead of relying on strong characterization. I imagine the poster you responded to was also frustrated because the FFXIV community has on numerous occasions treated players badly or insinuated things about their character for liking the antagonist factions.

G'raha Tia is quite literally a character who regressed in terms of his writing quality and by the end of Endwalker was robbed of all agency. He is a comfort character with off-putting qualities that no longer contributes to the narrative in meaningful ways. I don't care if people want to make fanart of him baking cupcakes with the WoL. Just don't waste my time with that nonsense in the MSQ.

No other character is forced onto the WoL like this in the story. I imagine if they did something like this with ARR Thancred that sectors of the community would deem it "problematic" yet the red-headed catboy gets a free pass it seems.