Rewritten MSQ - Garlemald and EW

[CrownySuccubus]

Furthermore, the concept of 'whataboutism' is almost always simply used to deflect from the fact that someone is going around deliberately provoking posters only to proclaim that any pushback in response is the worst thing ever and that any mention of the act leading to the response is somehow suddenly irrelevant even if it took place in the same thread.

No. "Whataboutism" is a deliberate attempt to compare an apple to a banana to claim that one viewpoint has equal validity to another. As someone else pointed out in a different thread, it's a superficial deontological argument that tries to claim that "if you claim X is a bad thing, then that means it must be bad ALL the time, no matter what". Such as claiming that if killing is wrong, then it's equally wrong for someone to kill an axe-wielding serial killer in self-defense. That is a "whataboutism".

[SentioftheHoukai]

I've commented on this issue before:



I bolded the most relevant portion since that's often the most applicable and it extends to many other issues such as criticism of the story being seen as worthy of personal attacks.

Furthermore, the concept of 'whataboutism' is almost always simply used to deflect from the fact that someone is going around deliberately provoking posters only to proclaim that any pushback in response is the worst thing ever and that any mention of the act leading to the response is somehow suddenly irrelevant even if it took place in the same thread.

Theodric has the right of it here. SO. MANY. TIMES. have those who love Endwalker and Hydaelyn, and hate Emet-Selch and the Ascians Three, anything Ancient, Zodiark etc. not nearly as subtly as they like to think implied that we who like Garlemald or the Ascians for any reason at all are actually supporters of fascism and genocide in real life and I'm so sick of it. It's sickeningly ironic, seeing as how I possess many qualities irl, up to and including my sexuality and gender identity that the real Nazis would stone me to death for if they were granted the power to do so.

Frankly, I can't take anymore of this 'you guys are oh so terrible and we are such innocent widdle angels' shit over someone else's dislike of your favorite video game character. What is so evil about our differing opinions that the Ever Faithful Hounds of Hydaelyn have to dogpile us and rip our flesh to pieces every time we have the gall to post a provisional 'MSQ revision' and hide it under the guise of 'lore correction' or other such tripe?

[IkaraGreydancer]

Theodric has the right of it here. SO. MANY. TIMES. have those who love Endwalker and Hydaelyn, and hate Emet-Selch and the Ascians Three, anything Ancient, Zodiark etc. not nearly as subtly as they like to think implied that we who like Garlemald or the Ascians for any reason at all are actually supporters of fascism and genocide in real life and I'm so sick of it. It's sickeningly ironic, seeing as how I possess many qualities irl, up to and including my sexuality and gender identity that the real Nazis would stone me to death for if they were granted the power to do so.

Frankly, I can't take anymore of this 'you guys are oh so terrible and we are such innocent widdle angels' shit over someone else's dislike of your favorite video game character. What is so evil about our differing opinions that the Ever Faithful Hounds of Hydaelyn have to dogpile us and rip our flesh to pieces every time we have the gall to post a provisional 'MSQ revision' and hide it under the guise of 'lore correction' or other such tripe?

You outta chill out...

[aveyond-dreams]

I mean she isn't wrong about them speaking over others' ideas of "what could have been" by citing and wielding lore to suit whatever argument they are making. Imagining things as if they were different is kind of the whole point. I have a lot more respect for people who are honest enough to say that they like or dislike certain characters and that is why they like or dislike what the story did with them. It gets tiresome when one says "I wish they took things in this direction" and then you have a bunch of people typing paragraphs in protest, sometimes subtly implying things about others.

I do not believe that Endwalker was as well-crafted in terms of its story as Shadowbringers. I do not believe that it effectively used each character to their full potential, and that it was more concerned with overt messaging than providing an entertaining experience. I do not pick a theme and then write a story around that theme, I come up with things I want to write down and if a theme naturally arises from that sequence of events then so be it - better yet if such things are left to the reader's interpretation rather than me having to spell everything out like Endwalker did.

[IkaraGreydancer]

I mean she isn't wrong about them speaking over others' ideas of "what could have been" by citing and wielding lore to suit whatever argument they are making. Imagining things as if they were different is kind of the whole point. I have a lot more respect for people who are honest enough to say that they like or dislike certain characters and that is why they like or dislike what the story did with them. It gets tiresome when one says "I wish they took things in this direction" and then you have a bunch of people typing paragraphs in protest, sometimes subtly implying things about others.

I do not believe that Endwalker was as well-crafted in terms of its story as Shadowbringers. I do not believe that it effectively used each character to their full potential, and that it was more concerned with overt messaging than providing an entertaining experience.

People being talked over happens all the time here. It's not exactly cool to like EWs story here as 100 folks will come out siting their reasons why it's bad to them. It's why you don't see many if any positive threads on the first pages of the OF.

That being said, this person went WAY left field with the fascist n genocide stuff. I've yet to see anybody claim that about folks here, if anything most of what I see are folks saying you can't be ok with one and not the other. Sexuality, gender identity...nazis, tearing of flesh? They're clearly tripping rn and no point in defending it like that's not the case.

Plus...I've also seen you jump on folks who express favorable opinions of Graha Tia so...sort of an odd take

[aveyond-dreams]

Possibly people speak out against the quality of Endwalker's story because there are a lot of concrete things to point to in its structure and use of plot devices like time travel and memory wipes instead of relying on strong characterization. I imagine the poster you responded to was also frustrated because the FFXIV community has on numerous occasions treated players badly or insinuated things about their character for liking the antagonist factions.

G'raha Tia is quite literally a character who regressed in terms of his writing quality and by the end of Endwalker was robbed of all agency. He is a comfort character with off-putting qualities that no longer contributes to the narrative in meaningful ways. I don't care if people want to make fanart of him baking cupcakes with the WoL. Just don't waste my time with that nonsense in the MSQ.

No other character is forced onto the WoL like this in the story. I imagine if they did something like this with ARR Thancred that sectors of the community would deem it "problematic" yet the red-headed catboy gets a free pass it seems.

[IkaraGreydancer]

Possibly people speak out against the quality of Endwalker's story because there are a lot of concrete things to point to in its structure and use of plot devices like time travel and memory wipes instead of relying on strong characterization. I imagine the poster you responded to was also frustrated because the FFXIV community has on numerous occasions treated players badly or insinuated things about their character for liking the antagonist factions.

G'raha Tia is quite literally a character who regressed in terms of his writing quality and by the end of Endwalker was robbed of all agency. He is a comfort character with off-putting qualities that no longer contributes to the narrative in meaningful ways. I don't care if people want to make fanart of him baking cupcakes with the WoL. Just don't waste my time with that nonsense in the MSQ.

No other character is forced onto the WoL like this in the story. I imagine if they did something like this with ARR Thancred that sectors of the community would deem it "problematic" yet the red-headed catboy gets a free pass it seems.

You "imagine" folks would have an issue if Thancred was the same in ARR...based on what exactly? Your own biased views? They hold no weight when speaking about others as thats purely about you n your wants tbf.

You can't exactly have played EW and then turn around and claim he doesn't contribute to the narrative...thats objectively false. He isn't the main character like he was in ShB but that doesn't mean he now contributes nothing. He finally gets to be himself without the burden of a world on his hands. The "exarch" isn't absent by any means though as shown in Radz. And when shit goes down he doesn't play around as seen in Garl. He just doesnt have to be in that mode at all times now. I wouldn't call that a regression at all. And let's not pretend Graha hasn't always been a fanboy. The story let's you know this numerous times prior to EW. If its a waste of your time there's a skip feature for a reason.

Also..."red headed catboy", really? This just comes off like hater speak

[aveyond-dreams]

Fanboy characters who are mostly used as overt fanservice are detrimental to the narrative and I am extremely unlikely to be swayed from that position. The few moments of heroics he was afforded in Endwalker do not erase all the other times when he was reduced to what I would describe as a ridiculous spectacle.

That is the image of him that stuck. A sparkly eyed burger eating catboy who has to tell me how much he loves me every 5 minutes.

[Knot_D]

Fanboy characters who are mostly used as overt fanservice are detrimental to the narrative and I am extremely unlikely to be swayed from that position. The few moments of heroics he was afforded in Endwalker do not erase all the other times when he was reduced to what I would describe as a ridiculous spectacle.

That is the image of him that stuck. A sparkly eyed burger eating catboy who has to tell me how much he loves me every 5 minutes.

Because that's how cool we are? Saving the world and the shard, defeating primals, and other heroic stuff. For sure I'll go fanboy over my WoL if I see him with my own eyes

[IkaraGreydancer]

Fanboy characters who are mostly used as overt fanservice are detrimental to the narrative and I am extremely unlikely to be swayed from that position. The few moments of heroics he was afforded in Endwalker do not erase all the other times when he was reduced to what I would describe as a ridiculous spectacle.

That is the image of him that stuck. A sparkly eyed burger eating catboy who has to tell me how much he loves me every 5 minutes.

Then all I can say is I'm glad I don't share your outlook. It has allowed me to enjoy far more than you do about EW clearly. The story isn't reducing his character you are. But ofc you'll never see it that way and would rather point fingers at the writers (who aren't perfect before you claim thats what I'm saying). And also before you possibly claim it Graha isn't my favorite character or anything, that's tied between Thancred and Hilda lol