"I don't want to think while I play, so no one should be allowed to."

[Renathras]

It also goes both ways.

The easy solution is to have some jobs that are hard, and some jobs that are easy, best of both worlds.
The problem's there?

This.

SO MUCH THIS.

I've said this a lot, so yeah, I agree.

The funny thing is, the people wanting the hard jobs "to be challenged" get mad if you suggest letting them have what they want. I've suggested making SCH and AST "complex" healers with all the DPS stuff they want to "not be bored" while leaving WHM and SGE the same as today, and AST/SCH doing no more damage than WHM/SGE, just having to put in more work.

Instantly the argument goes from "we just don't want to be bored" to "we should be rewarded for our harder work...even though it's work we're literally asking for".

Then you see arguments like this thread calling anyone bad or lacking competence if they aren't good with (or just don't enjoy) DPS rotations.

The truth is, these people are elitists that want to lock other people out of content. The "boredom" argument is a canard, and always has been. If it wasn't, they'd jump at the chance of having a couple complex Jobs in each role to play so they wouldn't be bored. And if they thought they WERE really the majority of the player base - as they insist they are - they'd jump at this because what better way to prove it than the statistics showing all the people swapping from WHM/SGE to AST/SCH because EVERYONE loves complex challenge?

...but I think the reality is, we all know people would swap FROM the complex TO the simple, and then the OP and those like them would complain that the simple Jobs being able to match their DPS is unfair and "bads" are allowed to do content (the horror!) and how every Job needs to be punishing to prevent people who aren't them from enjoying the game or being competent at clearing content.

.

I think the truth is that FFXIV is where it is and is not very likely to change to suit them anyway. But it'd be nice if they dropped the canards and just fully embraced what they want - a game with elites standing atop the Orgrimmar bank in full Tier 3 with the masses of "lesser" players gawking at them in "awe".

...that has never really been FFXIV outside of a few achievements and mounts, and it's unlikely it ever will be. And thank god for that. FFXIV has never been Dark Souls, and it's never been as toxic as games like WoW. I think most people prefer it stay that way.

[Kazelus]

I think the truth is that FFXIV is where it is and is not very likely to change to suit them anyway. But it'd be nice if they dropped the canards and just fully embraced what they want - a game with elites standing atop the Orgrimmar bank in full Tier 3 with the masses of "lesser" players gawking at them in "awe".

You really don't understand that people who are asking for more complex DPS rotation on healer roles just only wants to do something that is NOT SPAMMING ONE BUTTON for 10 min straight ?

It will not increase difficulty on the healer roles, bad will still be bad, but good healer will be able to have an interesting gameplay to do. That's all.

[pikalovr]

This.

SO MUCH THIS.

I've said this a lot, so yeah, I agree.

The funny thing is, the people wanting the hard jobs "to be challenged" get mad if you suggest letting them have what they want. I've suggested making SCH and AST "complex" healers with all the DPS stuff they want to "not be bored" while leaving WHM and SGE the same as today, and AST/SCH doing no more damage than WHM/SGE, just having to put in more work.

Instantly the argument goes from "we just don't want to be bored" to "we should be rewarded for our harder work...even though it's work we're literally asking for".

Then you see arguments like this thread calling anyone bad or lacking competence if they aren't good with (or just don't enjoy) DPS rotations.

The truth is, these people are elitists that want to lock other people out of content. The "boredom" argument is a canard, and always has been. If it wasn't, they'd jump at the chance of having a couple complex Jobs in each role to play so they wouldn't be bored. And if they thought they WERE really the majority of the player base - as they insist they are - they'd jump at this because what better way to prove it than the statistics showing all the people swapping from WHM/SGE to AST/SCH because EVERYONE loves complex challenge?

...but I think the reality is, we all know people would swap FROM the complex TO the simple, and then the OP and those like them would complain that the simple Jobs being able to match their DPS is unfair and "bads" are allowed to do content (the horror!) and how every Job needs to be punishing to prevent people who aren't them from enjoying the game or being competent at clearing content.

.

I think the truth is that FFXIV is where it is and is not very likely to change to suit them anyway. But it'd be nice if they dropped the canards and just fully embraced what they want - a game with elites standing atop the Orgrimmar bank in full Tier 3 with the masses of "lesser" players gawking at them in "awe".

...that has never really been FFXIV outside of a few achievements and mounts, and it's unlikely it ever will be. And thank god for that. FFXIV has never been Dark Souls, and it's never been as toxic as games like WoW. I think most people prefer it stay that way.

hmm yes effort equal reward hmm yes this foreign concept tot he average XIV player apparently it's almost as if games reward you for going for more difficult things or rewards you for putting int he time or effort to find ways to cheese the game and make it easier. no no this isn't a game after all that's proposterous

[Renathras]

You really don't understand that people who are asking for more complex DPS rotation on healer roles just only wants to do something that is NOT SPAMMING ONE BUTTON for 10 min straight ?

I don't understand THAT, because THAT is not what people want. As I noted in my post, when I mention something like "Okay, let's make AST and SCH harder and leave WHM as it is today, and they all do the same damage, but WHM does so while just spamming Glare vs AST/SCH having to juggle 7 DoTs", the response is always "NOOOOO!!!! If I'm doing all this more WORK, I should be REWARDED FOR IT". But if your reward was just "not being bored", then "not being bored" is the reward. People asking for more complex DPS rotations are asking for either more damage OR for all the healer rotations to be made more complex so "lazy" or "bad" players aren't able to compete with them.

It seriously is NOT just about not being bored. Read the first two pages of this thread - I think even just the FIRST page of this thread - and you'll see plenty of the "bad players aren't competent and shouldn't be clearing content" posts. That is CLEARLY not just a "I want to not be bored" thing to say...

It will not increase difficulty on the healer roles,

Narrator: It will, in fact, increase the difficulty on the healer roles...

bad will still be bad, but good healer will be able to have an interesting gameplay to do. That's all.

Translation: Players who aren't as skilled as you will fail content while you will be a god among the lesser mortals.
...in other words, exactly what I said above.

.

In the next episode of "Proving Ren is Right":

hmm yes effort equal reward hmm yes this foreign concept tot he average XIV player apparently it's almost as if games reward you for going for more difficult things or rewards you for putting int he time or effort to find ways to cheese the game and make it easier. no no this isn't a game after all that's proposterous

Again, is the argument you don't want to be bored, or is the argument you want people not as dedicated and/or skilled as you to not get to clear content, or for it to be far more painful for them to manage to do so?

The two are NOT the same argument...

EDIT:

Let me just emphasise this point of yours. It’s all that needs to be said really

Hehe, not QUITE sure if you're agreeing with me or not but...(optimistically hopeful)...yes..?

[Kazelus]

I don't understand THAT, because THAT is not what people want. As I noted in my post, when I mention something like "Okay, let's make AST and SCH harder and leave WHM as it is today, and they all do the same damage, but WHM does so while just spamming Glare vs AST/SCH having to juggle 7 DoTs", the response is always "NOOOOO!!!! If I'm doing all this more WORK, I should be REWARDED FOR IT". But if your reward was just "not being bored", then "not being bored" is the reward. People asking for more complex DPS rotations are asking for either more damage OR for all the healer rotations to be made more complex so "lazy" or "bad" players aren't able to compete with them.

It seriously is NOT just about not being bored. Read the first two pages of this thread - I think even just the FIRST page of this thread - and you'll see plenty of the "bad players aren't competent and shouldn't be clearing content" posts. That is CLEARLY not just a "I want to not be bored" thing to say...



Narrator: It will, in fact, increase the difficulty on the healer roles...



Translation: Players who aren't as skilled as you will fail content while you will be a god among the lesser mortals.
...in other words, exactly what I said above.

.

In the next episode of "Proving Ren is Right":



Again, is the argument you don't want to be bored, or is the argument you want people not as dedicated and/or skilled as you to not get to clear content, or for it to be far more painful for them to manage to do so?

The two are NOT the same argument...

EDIT:



Hehe, not QUITE sure if you're agreeing with me or not but...(optimistically hopeful)...yes..?

They won't fail more content than now. People who can clear EX/Savage as a healer will still be able to do so with more complex rotation. People who can't handle more complex rotation have in first nothing to do in such content at the start.

And healer must have a same level of complexity, you can't keep up the bottom complexity of an actual healer and increase the others, that's not really a good idea.

The difficulty will increase for people who CARES, that's all.

[Sebazy]

The truth is, these people are elitists that want to lock other people out of content.

Let me just emphasise this point of yours. It’s all that needs to be said really