"I don't want to think while I play, so no one should be allowed to."

[AziraSyuren]

One of the reasons I was so positive on job design in ShB was because I thought it'd be the start of a new and exciting direction in job design. And indeed, I do much prefer how most of the tanks play compared to how they used to!

But it turns out that there was nowhere to go but down, or in the best case scenario, sideways.

[pikalovr]

What MMOs have you been playing that go to that level of 'tutorial'? I've encountered exactly zero in the years I've been playing MMORPGs.

GW2 in the first explorer dungeon level 35 has you fight multiple groups of enemies, hell there was one route in the level 45 dungeon that you would have to fight 2-3 huge groups of enemies if you didn't sneak around them and pull them one by one. some people would consider the 8-10 mobs we get now as hoards. but even in tank quests you never really get more than like 5 which is one pack at best, or if it is a large scale battle you normall have other characters that also eat aggro so you're kinda left tanking the few mobs the game has chosen for you to hit (i still try to pull all mobs in that scenario tho regardless cause it's more interesting). i mean if you wanna use open world events as the tutorial so to speak. there's quite a few even in the earlier zones that do a better job of letting you learn your kit and specialities than the role quests even at level 50+

[DPZ2]

GW2 in the first explorer dungeon level 35 has you fight multiple groups of enemies, hell there was one route in the level 45 dungeon that you would have to fight 2-3 huge groups of enemies if you didn't sneak around them and pull them one by one.

From my experience with GW2, you never ever have to enter a dungeon. Plus, that's not really a 'teaching moment' through a job quest. There are plenty of places where one had to learn how to CC properly in WoW, for instance --- thinking specifically about Sunken Temple and the green dragon area in particular. But those weren't 'job quests to teach you how to do your job properly', although I did have an experienced Shaman take two of us as hunters through that area and teach us how to CC. That game just threw things at you, like most games.

[AnnRam]

In before every job gets all their skills chained in one bottom because " muh 1-2-3 combo anxiety .. "

[Shuuli]

In before every job gets all their skills chained in one bottom because " muh 1-2-3 combo anxiety .. "

You can already do that with a macro. I think if you are a dragoon and dont have a macro for some combo actions you are just suffering in vain. o.o

[SargeTheSeagull]

If it means anything, the crowd that wants job diversity to return is louder than it was in ShB.

Yeah because those of us who are just now speaking up (at least I) thought that the ShB simplification was just a little experiment. I figured they’d look at job feedback from ShB and decide to reverse course. They didn’t and so those of us who held our breath so to speak are speaking up

[IckeDerTyp]

Healing has always been the easiest thing in every MMORPG I've ever played - watch for a dropping hp bar, fill it!

So I think most people miss the point, in a way.

Do I like healing? Yea!
Do I like healers in ff14? Uh yes!
Do I want them to evolve the concepts instead of regressing? Yep!

I think, in the end we can only wait for what the devs have in mind. And if we dislike it, we can always leave! Or complain and cry all day, which I like doing too

I still miss old stupid Ast cards and spreading dots as sch every damn day... And don't ask about Selene... EVER T_T

Jokes aside tho, I think people worry too much ^^

[pikalovr]

Healing has always been the easiest thing in every MMORPG I've ever played - watch for a dropping hp bar, fill it!

So I think most people miss the point, in a way.

Do I like healing? Yea!
Do I like healers in ff14? Uh yes!
Do I want them to evolve the concepts instead of regressing? Yep!

I think, in the end we can only wait for what the devs have in mind. And if we dislike it, we can always leave! Or complain and cry all day, which I like doing too

I still miss old stupid Ast cards and spreading dots as sch every damn day... And don't ask about Selene... EVER T_T

Jokes aside tho, I think people worry too much ^^

the issue is the average consumer can no longer "vote" or get anything done with their wallet anymore as long as there's a small percentage of players who hand them a large amount of money they could care less.

and as others have said they were fine with SHB cause they thought it'd lead to something in EW or just be an experiment which wasn't the case, i think we're past teh point of "seeing what the devs do" tbh. especially when we get things like SMN that gets defended with "oh but devs will make it feel complete later or int eh next expansion" cause we should wait for a year and a half for a fleshed out kit? i mean hell our lovable carbuncle is basically useless now, and we have like one thing to think about "can i use 2 ifrit hardcasts/1 garuda hardcast here"?

[Nizzi]

Healing has always been the easiest thing in every MMORPG I've ever played - watch for a dropping hp bar, fill it!

So I think most people miss the point, in a way.

Do I like healing? Yea!
Do I like healers in ff14? Uh yes!
Do I want them to evolve the concepts instead of regressing? Yep!

I think, in the end we can only wait for what the devs have in mind. And if we dislike it, we can always leave! Or complain and cry all day, which I like doing too

I still miss old stupid Ast cards and spreading dots as sch every damn day... And don't ask about Selene... EVER T_T

Jokes aside tho, I think people worry too much ^^

I felt like I waited 2+ years in ShB to see what the devs had in mind for healers, and what I got was ShB 2.0 with some QoL changes that should've come mid expac during ShB. The idea of waiting until 2023/2024 to maybe not spam 1-1-1-1 is incredibly depressing.

Return SCH's DoTs now, Yoshida!

[Zaene]

I have a wonderful book for folks if you're looking for a deeper dive into why folks are polarized into these two camps. It's called The Growth Mindset. The basic premise is often people believe either 1. Your talents are what they are and they can't be changed (lots of implications here) or 2. You can always improve and should.

I think this fits into this discussion in the following way; someone earlier in the thread brought up basketball as metaphor. You see a dunk on TV, go to a gym, try a dunk, get brutalized in a pick up game. Go home thinking "basketball is trash, sports are trash, why are there so many rules..." instead of seeing an opportunity to get good at something and become able to dunk *Not everyone can but as a goal what's wrong with it?*

Similarly, especially with social media, streamers, etc, raiding and showing high levels of play people have the same mentality; if I have to -work- to achieve some goal obviously it's tooo hard! I should be able to walk up sneeze in the general vicinity of my keyboard and clear raids.

It's all contained in the book, in way more detail with amazing nuance.

Like, with a non-growth mindset, if you ever have to -try- it obviously means you're -bad- because the truly talented never had to -try- (a fallacious way of thinking)