"I don't want to think while I play, so no one should be allowed to."

[Shougun]

even FFXI white mages has more WHITE Magic combat than ffxiv white mages

Do they? I was glancing really quick and I'd say the number is actually pretty similar when you consider repeat spells and such. Like Banish 1 / 2 / 3, etc all the same spell.

Speaking potency specific:
FFXI:
Dia, Banish, Diaga, holy, may count cure?
3 - 4

FFXIV
Aero, stone, holy, fatback, and flatulence mastery
4 (with spell rules that imo makes them more interesting to use)

FFXI has more debuff specific spells though.

Yet I'm not saying that to be an argument against adding anything cool and interesting! Was just curious about the statement and thought 'maybe not?'

Debuffs for the sake of it:
FFXI:
Slow, silence, flash, addle
4

FFXIV:
Reeepose!!!
1, yeet

[GrimGale]

I don't play SCH in Savage (I'm SMN there), but I usually roll into Expert dungeon with it for queue times.

I prefer SCH as a healer because I literally never have to cast a GCD heal if I don't feel like it. I don't have to take my target off the tank unless a DPS stepped in the bad. It's the laziest healer and I love it so much.

Sure, Art of War one button spam is boring, but it's also satisfying in a way to NOT EVER HAVE TO STOP SLAPPING THE GROUND because the tank is good and the DPS got everything dead enough that I could finish off the final mob with a quick Ruin II.

I remember casting Bio and Miasma, then spreading the Dots with Bane. One of the most satisfying things ever. Then maintaining Miasma II and Shadowflare up while juggling with tank health was really entertaining.

[GrimGale]

And? you hit the one dps (one of at least 2 that you have) button you have, did you or anyone else die during said content and you brought them back? Did you still clear? Did you contribute 5% or more damage to taking down the boss? if it's yes to any of these then again congratulations its working as intended.
No one here has yet said anything about why the healer jobs legit need to all of a sudden be a special case separate from every other caster.

>Squares reduces DPS jobs and Tanks to 1-2 dps buttons the rest being 20 repeats of the same Damage reduction button or DPS buff button.
>People complain about their rotations being reduced to mindless spam.
>"You can still contribute DPS with your streamlined kits, its working as intended."

[Jkap_Goat]

well keep in mind, Slow, Paralyzed, Dia II, Holy II are white magics as well

also FFXI whites mages can also uses those spells only if your subjob can use those spells like red mage, Runefencer, Scholar, Geomancer

[Shougun]

well keep in mind, Slow, Paralyzed, Dia II, Holy II are white magics as well

also FFXI whites mages can also uses those spells only if your subjob can use those spells like red mage, Runefencer, Scholar, Geomancer

I don't believe it is fair to count Dia separate from Dia II. In that case I'd count stone, stone x, glower, glower X, etc, etc. Which bloats the numbers for both jobs. I think in terms of game design they don't offer enough to be interesting enough to separately count. Dia is Dia II with a essentially passive adjustment, like FFXIV has (with mp costs and cast time they're not exactly a direct upgrade, at least back when I played FFXI, but for the purpose of this conversation I'd argue they're definitely in similar veins and we're not counting FFXIV's passive upgrades).

Like I see your edit with Boost and I do think I'd count that under potency effects, but I wouldn't count each one separately. It's bloated compared to what more interesting rules could provide in a more modern game. (Though including Boost does make FFXI either on par or 1 above FFXIV in count of potency effecting spells).


The point I do like particularly is that FFXI has subjobs, which could technically suggest a lot. Jobs are not just 'jobs' in FFXI. Personally I wouldn't use too much of FFXI's combat as an example, because to me having interesting tooltips/combos/interactions is more fun than the find a spell in a menu type system from FFXI.

Like you can have a lot of 'options' in FFXI but I'd prefer to have a lot more 'smart' spells than just 'lots of options'. (Which isn't a full defense of FFXIV, as I've put in other posts I think we could enhance jobs with smarter spells or sometimes more options like I did suggest more buff / debuff spells with a bias based on which job you were and even removing some healing spells for two reasons.. 1) it will reduce the amount of healing output potential meaning healing might be a bit more valuable and 2) regain slots to do something a bit more fun like buff / debuff or just another offensive spell of value).

So I'd append to my first response to you that I still don't think FFXI would make a shining example, becaues I wouldn't want to replicate the spell bloat, and I do think FFXIV and FFXI are not terribly far away from each other on white mage when speaking potency specific spells (its like 4-5 vs 4), but I would still agree there is more fun that could be added (and I don't think it has to be against the theme of healer, which I believe is one reason why SE is not hot on damage spells- add more support skills over straight healing then as the repeated example).

[pikalovr]

whats funny s everyone sits here and defends healer design when we still have undraw and fey gauge LMAO

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I'm getting 2nd hand embarrassment just from reading certain individual outing themselves encouraging bad practices. I know this is not an exactly healer focused thread based on the OP (I think...), but boi. How ludicrously shallow they are.. just like the role's design itself.

[Padudu]

I'm getting 2nd hand embarrassment just from reading certain individual outing themselves encouraging bad practices. I know this is not an exactly healer focused thread based on the OP (I think...), but boi. How ludicrously shallow they are.. just like the role's design itself.

I know that we've seen a lot of weird takes on this forum but dear lord lol.. this deserves an award of some sort.

[anhaato]

This has to be one of my favorite threads I've started lmao y'all are getting their asses. I don't even have to say anything. But I will!

Every single argument in favor of current healers is inextricably based in "I enjoy it because I play it badly," if any of them were to no longer play it badly they, too, would realize where we're coming from. But they're of the party of players who don't want to get good and therefore find the suggestion that they have room to improve to be offensive. They don't want to improve, they don't want to try, they just want to turn their brains off and press one button for dps between spamming medica 2 or succor because can't let the regens or shields drop!!! They don't say it, but it's quite obvious that they don't want healers to have more complex dps because they wouldn't or couldn't do it with their current lack of drive (not skill, I'm a firm believer that anyone can become good at this game with a bit of determination), and their failings would then be more obvious compared to those who do pull off their rotations.

I'm getting 2nd hand embarrassment just from reading certain individual outing themselves encouraging bad practices. I know this is not an exactly healer focused thread based on the OP (I think...), but boi. How ludicrously shallow they are.. just like the role's design itself.

I didn't intend it to be entirely healers, but they're the greatest victims of dumbing down jobs so there's a lot more to say for them. Also if I were to say I miss tank stances I'd get jumped so lol.

[Shougun]

I didn't intend it to be entirely healers, but they're the greatest victims of dumbing down jobs so there's a lot more to say for them. Also if I were to say I miss tank stances I'd get jumped so lol.

I'm def glad tank stance dancing and cleric dancing are gone, though I wasn't of the opinion it had to be removed entirely- I just really disliked having to do it on at least one job lol. My suggestion long ago was to change Paladin to a new Oath system, such that you might spend your points to take an oath and it would have an effect for sometime with activation effects on the oaths themselves as well. So you might have a moment where you burn all your gauge to have both Shield and Sword active at the same time (or there might be some super holy power at later levels that gives you fancy aura effects and activates a 'super oath' lol). Effects wouldn't be exactly the same, obviously since it's less passive now, and I was imagining it would also come back around to other mechanics almost like a spell blade / rune blade / Death Knight like concept (making Oaths would allow you to release havoc later, making the concept itself a sort of core component that leans on being a 'Paladin').

But on point- I didn't like having to stance dance and lose a GCD and stuff like that I always felt annoyed to do it but did it because I knew there was a substantial difference if you didn't. Beyond finding it very cumbersome / annoying I also felt it went against what I would prefer to consider the roleplay theme of the job was "I don't intentionally defeat my own purpose of being a TANK by tanking worse". Similar reasons for healer. Silly to shoot yourself in the foot for your own job's purpose, so I didn't like it as a concept. Back onto a gameplay level of annoyance I'd say it was akin to Warrior's needing esuna'd on berserk, felt very cumbersome and not fun (imo).

I don't think those strategies for gameplay enhancements are the best examples of making something more complex / interesting. Particularly because they also /ensure/ a huge difference between decent play and skilled play. Ideally there is an opportunity for fine tuning and feeling clever, but I don't think having many situations (or perhaps jobs in general) that it's like okay-good play "dirt on the ground" skilled play "the next solar system over".

So I maintain, at least for some jobs, it was a great move- and I prefer the play style without it. But I didn't really feel it had to be entirely purged lol. Though at the same time I would have liked to discuss /other/ ways to maintain some interesting choices while it being less inhibitive to your own purpose. As even if it was just saying "maybe some jobs should keep it" I'd be like "can we not do better?" "are there not BETTER ideas to do what that does? Let's discuss that, I am not here to purge and give you nothing.. but I don't think you have the best either". I don't think those two spells were particularly good spells for quality gameplay, imo (but I don't mean to say all jobs get it removed and nothing fills the void created, as it obviously did require some technical skill to use).

/pounce