When is PLD Getting Fixed So It Can Be a VIABLE Tank?

[Chardrizard]

Maybe they need to nerf WHM too because they can solo lv59 NM. NURF IT NURFFFFF

[Firon]

Well, I admit that what I was hoping for, if anything, was for a hard line between DPS and tank WAR. But more along the lines of you entering an encounter geared to tank and that's all you were there for; I believe I even undug the stance ideas I had for MRD several months ago when it came up. Maybe I've misunderstood the changes, but that's not what was given to us by the devs.

Steel Cyclone got a DMG reduction, While whirlwind got a DMG boost and Rampage buff made war even better at at tanking that it already was, also berserk got buffed as well. War still got more stuff than pld when they was suppose to ton down the class. I still think they should have made it so war can't tank w/o Rampage and can't DD w/o Berserk to balance the class properly.

[Duelle]

-Add parrys
-Do not increase Block rate more than nessesary
-Add parrys
-Add parrys
-Increase MP recovery

This I can agree with.

-A strong HP restore, I'm talking really strong and pretty much automatic. Invincibility is nice but theres gotta be more.

(okay maybe thats a bit much but you catch my drift right)?

Well, considering Bloodbath+Goring Blade or Spirits Within is pretty much an awesome combination means we already have something like that.

Most party setups include 2-3 whm for difficult content. If paladin would be fixed THE RIGHT WAY meaning a high enmity tank/healer, you would eleminate one white mage from the equation(the tank healer), making room for more DD.

I disagree. Party set ups should be pretty much the same across the board. Two tanks, two healers, 4 DPS if 8-man, maybe 3 tanks, 4 healers and 9 DPS if 16-man. This goes back to that whole parity thing I've been talking about. PLD should be able to take care of itself to a degree (maybe, because I would personally turn Holy Succor into a survivability cooldown), and should never remove a healer slot from the group comp.

[Molly_Millions]

It's all in ur head.

agreed. My LS has a tank who prefers PLD, when he wants to play PLD we let him because it works just fine.

[Skies]

Duelle, you need to understand there that Warrior wasn't nerfed at all, merely it's two stances became more 'focused' in their tasks, DPSing and Tanking. Also need to realize how Paladin and Warrior both have a unique difference on how they tank: Warrior can easily tank a large number of mobs but Paladin outshines him on a single one (not saying that Paladin is perfect right now but just mentioning the difference I see according to what people say on those forums)

However, I will mention one small gripe I have with you. You seem to think that Paladin needs DPS for some reason, whereas it seems to run counter to what the design intent is, very low damage, very high tanking skills. DPS is the one thing that Paladin doesn't needs, although it would probably be pretty good to enhance it's raw enmity skills.

[1clou]

The only thing I would like changed as of right now since PLD's skill set and abilities are more a less where they should be; is its HP adjusted so it has more of a pool to work with. Having a larger HP pool would definitely help with mp generation which is great as it is, but with more hp to possible have topped off it would enable you to fully maximize enmity generation for holy succor and still have 1 whm mildly toss cure 1's instead of cure bombing Cure II's because if your anything but topped off and a ability is down, your dead.

[Duelle]

Duelle, you need to understand there that Warrior wasn't nerfed at all, merely it's two stances became more 'focused' in their tasks, DPSing and Tanking. Also need to realize how Paladin and Warrior both have a unique difference on how they tank: Warrior can easily tank a large number of mobs but Paladin outshines him on a single one (not saying that Paladin is perfect right now but just mentioning the difference I see according to what people say on those forums)

Which therefore implies niche tanking, which WILL rear its ugly head more than it already has the further down the line we go. And sadly, XIV, doesn't have the "habit vs game mechanics" conflict that would at least have people say "okay, our PuG will invite that PLD to tank because I equate PLD to tank even though WAR does a pretty damn good job and is better AoE to boot".

However, I will mention one small gripe I have with you. You seem to think that Paladin needs DPS for some reason, whereas it seems to run counter to what the design intent is, very low damage, very high tanking skills. DPS is the one thing that Paladin doesn't needs, although it would probably be pretty good to enhance it's raw enmity skills.

The short of it is a that tank DPS matters.

The long version of it is that I would have never brought the point of PLD DPS up were it not for the fact that between the weapons involved (sword vs great axe), there is a notable discrepancy. I've mentioned it in other threads, but if WAR tanking was one-handed axe and shield, I would see no issue because then you can justify both classes doing low damage because their design would then focus on enmity gain. Instead you have a guy with a really big axe doing notably more damage than the guy with a sword plinking away at the mob.

You obviously can't reduce great axe damage to bring it to sword level. Therefore the alternative is find a way to increase sword guy's DPS in some way to bring it within reasonable range. Because tank DPS matters, if you leave sword guy weak 2-handed guy is going to win, which is exactly what has been happening.

I'd love to be able to bring up examples, but I never tanked on a Death Knight in WoW so I really have no idea how that game managed to balance the DPS/threat/aggro playing field between sword&board Warrior and 2-handed weapon Death Knight. I know it's possible (because it happened and I've tanked alongside DKs), but I've never seen the methodology first hand. All I know is that the DPS gap was not sizeable enough to force the group to take a DK over a Warrior, and that's the same dynamic I want to see here.

[Crysten]

You seem to have it in your head that DPS is the only way to generate enmity, or at least, that's what your overall stance tells me. The common thought is that "PLD can't DPS, therefore it can't be a tank." The correct answer is "PLD can generate more than enough enmity through it's actions that DDs don't have to hold back and have enough survivability in a lot of situations to allow an extra DPS over a second WHM."

They're two distinct tanking styles right now. A WAR's tanking style is based more around generating enmity through it's own (and with Collusion, other's) damage at the cost of less defensive power. A PLD has a much higher enmity ceiling and more survivability post 1.22a but at the cost of less overall DPS from itself. There are pros and cons to each, now. Several LS and players have more than proven post update that current content, even speed runs, can be achieved with a PLD and a WAR tank.

While the jobs could probably use a little tweaking, there are very few instances where I'd take a PLD over a WAR and vice versa right now.

[Skies]

Thank you, Crysten. I do not have the sufficient language skills to explain my own point as well as you have explained it.

Once again, not saying that the Paladin and Warrior are both perfect as it is, there's a ways to go still (but i'm not sufficiently smart to tell where to go, though), but you're certainly running counter to the design spirit of the two jobs, Duelle.

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

Maybe they need to nerf WHM too because they can solo lv59 NM. NURF IT NURFFFFF

LOL Yeah man, I think it's kind of funny WHM has been coming up a lot now as a good soloer. This has always been the case back when they made class changes and CON solo was practically the new THM solo. People are just finding this out NOW?