Thread: 6.2 Hrothgar Update

Originally Posted by Kelev

Hello there!


Hrothgar are descended from Roes. We re-use a lot of structures from them for different things. For example the muscle slider for them actually controls the length of our tails. We have a bestial jaw and “whisker” bones as well as 5 bones in our tails. All of this stuff’s gotta come from somewhere, and we can’t just “have more” or we’d become difficult for lower-end video cards and PS4s to render. There are some “kludges” that are done here and there to make us possible. One of which is that our ears are part of our ‘masks’ - this is part of why we can’t have hats, and part of why we don’t have ear wiggles like Miqos, and 100% of why ears are not a selectable item on character creation. Viera do not have this problem, you can see that partially because they have have selectable ears.

Adding more bones and details would also make characters more difficult to transport which is already hard. You can see this in that we get chocobo saddlebags rather than additional inventory slots.

So I will go ahead and say it - modders aren’t the answer. They can only do a few things:

1) They can replace a model with something else (and others cannot see it)
2) They can make the model more complex, see problems above.
3) They can take the time to do race-specific work which Square used to do in HW, but I believe will not because it’s in a design document somewhere. This involves a change to how the game makes some decisions, and I’d rather Square fixed it right than have a modder change my client.

I encourage you to take a look at the “Bad Haircut” thread where I go into this in more detail, or contact me at the Discord above or on my Twitter @kelevvidui - happy to discuss more.

Okay can you explain...better? the use of the word "can't" in can't have hats? Why? We get dinkyass visors and ocular impairment goggles but not something that sits on TOP of our heads? (Which would be more logical like why can hrothgar viera and miqo use glasses when their ears are on top of their heads????). It should really just be a metadata flag or even just resizing gear for hroth headshapes. We have a hat toggle for gods sake and I have no idea WHY hrothgar or viera have that button to begin with. It really cannot be that much of a tax on anyone, even lowgrade ps4s (like mine) to process hat on head technology.
I remember seeing someone claim our trash hair options HAD to remove our ears because our ears would cause the systems to break but how? Our ears are smaller than miqo or viera so just letting ears slip outta the Snow beanie (like haha viera or miqote ears do, yknow, gods golden races) cannot put that much strain on the game engine when god knows there are not nearly enough hroth players per world to cause such issues, not anymore than viera running around with their ears still attached with rainmaker hair.

Originally Posted by XiRon

Okay can you explain...better? ... can't have hats?

Remember that "go easy, I wear out fast, I'm on your side" thing?

Go easy on me, I wear out fast, I'm on your side. There's a longer explanation in the "Hrothgar Haircuts are Really Bad" thread. It's a read, but if you'd like to educate yourself, I recommend starting there. But if you don't, I don't mind answering questions, just the implication I explained it poorly is unappreciated.

'Can't' is a reference to 'cannot as Hrothgar are currently with their refusal to allow certain kinds of clipping.' We're at an impasse that only Square can break and only by doing things they do not want.

It should really just be a metadata flag

I mentioned this. In order to do that, you have to engage in race-specific development or treat Hrothgar as an embedded system where those flags are kept on one's character.

or even just resizing gear for hroth headshapes.

There are four skulls with different shapes and a neck/posture that also can clip. If you do a one-size-fits-all method, we end up with the 2-B Peanut skull we got with our new hairstyles. If you do it per skull/posture, you add in 4 more assets instead of an object that stretches and fits based on the character's head. Square used to do this kind of work with hairstyles in HW. They apparently will not do it any more.

It really cannot be that much of a tax on anyone, even lowgrade ps4s (like mine) to process hat on head technology.

Any time you add in another asset, that requires testing. One of the things I mentioned in the HHaRB thread was that in patch 5.55 there was a hotfix for the Early to Rise hairstyle on Au Ra, wearing some gearsets. To put that into perspective, that's a fix for one race, with only some gear, for a hairstyle that is literal bedhead. Believe you me, I'm angry. Square would have to go back and test older assets one by one to actually determine "Hey this hat doesn't cause any conflicts at all."

our ears would cause the systems to break but how?

This is not true. Nothing would break. You'd have ear tips sticking out of unattractive hair would move through the static ears. You wouldn't be able to see much "ear" at all, and it would move funny.

Our ears are smaller than miqo or viera

Both of which have ear bones which can be adjusted to move into a hat/hair -compatible position.

so just letting ears slip outta the Snow beanie cannot put that much strain on the game engine

They would also look drastically different on each Hrothgar skull because there's no way to move the ears. Removing the ears makes the hair look consistent on all skulls.

Things clip all the time. Look at the back of your neck in just about any shirt you have. The world won't end.

It just doesn't fix our problem, that they ran out of bones.

-Kelly

To be fair I don't put the hat modding in such a high pedestal either. Their solution to most hats is hiding the ears. And I'm sorry but even with a race of anthropomorphic large cats not being real anyone who knows anything about real animals at all would tell wearing accessories muffling or flattening your ears like that would range from awkward to extremely uncomfortable. It's even more so than the ridiculous new hair. Majority of them don't look like a species with ears like Viera, Miqo'te or Hrothgar would want to wear at all unless they were forced and wanted to have trouble hearing while in action.

Originally Posted by ReynTime

To be fair I don't put the hat modding in such a high pedestal either. Their solution to most hats is hiding the ears.

I hate it when people start sentences with 'to be fair.' Generally they're going to say something that's technically correct, but not helpful.

Who is "they?" Modders? We're not talking about modders. Square's solution to most hats is hiding the hat.

And I'm sorry but even with a race of anthropomorphic large cats not being real anyone who knows anything about real animals at all would tell wearing accessories muffling or flattening your ears like that would range from awkward to extremely uncomfortable.

I hate it when people start replies to forum threads with 'And I'm sorry, but...' Generally they're going to say something that's not particularly supportive to the OP.

Generally, while I'm not a mean person, I reply to such things very directly and frankly. I don't like doing that. I'd rather make dad jokes.

As much as I love a misspelled Hildibrand weighing in on how my character should look, or the options I should have, not every hat is created equally. The thesis of this thread was "XiRon would really like it if Square would try" - "Trying" here would be designing things like seasonal rewards that all your players could use. Or allowing us to use things like the top hat where the neck isn't involved and the ears would be covered up anyway. Or examining each hat individually to see if there's an impact.

And I'm not sure that I want someone who wants so desperately to look like someone else they would "design" a character that not only looks identical to an NPC, but had to spell it "Hildbrand" because someone else beat 'em to it or the game designers didn't want you naming someone the exact name of an NPC. I'm not going to say where there's smoke there's fire, but I'm getting the idea originality may not be your forte.

And I'm sorry but even with a race of anthropomorphic large cats not being real anyone who knows anything about real animals at all would tell wearing accessories muffling or flattening your ears like that would range from awkward to extremely uncomfortable.

Did you know that I have an option in my client to hide or display headgear if I so choose? Little tickbox in my character profile. So if I think something looks awkward or uncomfortable, I can flag it invisible. Or take it off. But I get to make that choice. Not you. I took the liberty of looking you up on Lodestone, because I wanted to double-check that I got your name right, and even if this is just an avatar that you use and you're secretly a Hrothgar 99.44% of the time - which would be weird given the amount of money you've spent on the mogstation for character-specific glamours - you still don't get to dress my character. I still want more options, even if I select not to use them.

-Kelly

Originally Posted by ReynTime

To be fair I don't put the hat modding in such a high pedestal either. Their solution to most hats is hiding the ears. And I'm sorry but even with a race of anthropomorphic large cats not being real anyone who knows anything about real animals at all would tell wearing accessories muffling or flattening your ears like that would range from awkward to extremely uncomfortable. It's even more so than the ridiculous new hair. Majority of them don't look like a species with ears like Viera, Miqo'te or Hrothgar would want to wear at all unless they were forced and wanted to have trouble hearing while in action.

Hrothgar can wear glasses and circlets by the magic of telepathy I don't think "fictional ear discomfort" should matter. I see miqote wearing the calfskin rider cap all the damn time theres no reason hrothgar would be less comfortable in a hat when their ears are smaller, especially not in some of the bigger hat like the flat cap or the lv.60 ast witch hat.

Originally Posted by XiRon

Hrothgar can wear glasses and circlets by the magic of telepathy I don't think "fictional ear discomfort" should matter. I see miqote wearing the calfskin rider cap all the damn time theres no reason hrothgar would be less comfortable in a hat when their ears are smaller, especially not in some of the bigger hat like the flat cap or the lv.60 ast witch hat.

Those aren't even remotely comparable. One just "looks" goofy and the other looks flat out anatomically uncomfortable and impeding.
And I mentioned I don't think Miqo'te should be having their ears flattened either.

I thought the point of these countless Hrothgar complaints was to have SE treat the race with more respect? So what, you guys would rather they keep half-assing gear design for races with animal ears by IGNORING the ears completely?

Have fun then chaps. Sometimes I forget this is the community that saw the ARR dungeons join the fray of faceroll hallway sims and then clapped.

Originally Posted by ReynTime

Those aren't even remotely comparable. One just "looks" goofy and the other looks flat out anatomically uncomfortable and impeding.
And I mentioned I don't think Miqo'te should be having their ears flattened either.

I thought the point of these countless Hrothgar complaints was to have SE treat the race with more respect? So what, you guys would rather they keep half-assing gear design for races with animal ears by IGNORING the ears completely?

Have fun then chaps. Sometimes I forget this is the community that saw the ARR dungeons join the fray of faceroll hallway sims and then clapped.

Well to begin with in order for them to HALF-ass something there would have to be an ass in the first place. There is 0% ass here.
Secondly, "uncomfortable" is up to PLAYER and how they interpret their character. You are arguing an entire gear slot shouldn't work because you don't think players should have the option to say "I like this on my scrimbly wolbo" and that is crap.

I. Want. The. Gear. Slot. To. Function.
If something looks awkward or whatever I can use that handydandy hat toggle hrothgar and viera have thus far 0 reason to have on their character page to begin with. "Impending" girl there are dozens of facemasks, eyepatches etc that do nothing to impede my ability to assault enemies. You are arguing discomfort or impediment that as far as gameplay is concerned does not exist. Nobody in the game has trouble casting spells if they have some kinda mask over their mouth wtf is the point of your argument here? Just to coddle the devs so in 2 weeks Yoship can say "oh well realistically in my fantasy game wherein you punch the physical manifestation of being sad in the throat viera or hrothgar might feel uncomfy wear a trilby :-/ so thats why yet more gear doesn't exist on your models pls to be understanding"?

I'd be pleasantly surprised if 6.2 will unlock the rest of the Hrothgar hairstyles for all faces, but I doubt it.

Seems like they were originally committed to give Hrothgars what they give male Viera up until the the backlash the previous update caused. I'm inclined to think there won't be anything for Hrothgars in 6.2

Originally Posted by myahele

I'd be pleasantly surprised if 6.2 will unlock the rest of the Hrothgar hairstyles for all faces, but I doubt it.

Seems like they were originally committed to give Hrothgars what they give male Viera up until the the backlash the previous update caused. I'm inclined to think there won't be anything for Hrothgars in 6.2

I saw viera get rainmaker in 6.1 and was like "oh well apart from Snow our options are trash but at least we'll get the most requested hair in the game in 6.2, I really can't wait for 6.2 I love rainmaker" the Yoship said "mmm guys expending effort might make this take another eternity :/" and...god I have no reason to watch PLL anymore all I care about is my hrothgar getting to use the shit in game everyone else can