6.2 Hrothgar Update

**SturmChurro** · 06-27-2022 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by XiRon

...

I have hundreds upon hundreds of posts in support FOR viera/hrothgar since 2019. I'm sorry, but maybe I have lost my patience at this point. Hrothgar (and viera) should have never been added to the game. If they weren't going to be done right then they shouldn't have been done at all. Simple as that.

Apparently, hrothgar players are getting their money's worth - as has been told to me in the past - since they are still subbed to the game. I remember seeing so many people threatening to unsub when they released the patch. They are still subbed!

Give me a break, I was one of the first in support of viera/hrothgar, and was in support updating and fixing both. You really think it's just hrothgar having to deal with lower quality assets? Have you seen the viera foreheads? Tails being cut off, the sparse inclusion of new hairstyles to the game, and every other compromise of quality? Heck, an entire Garlemald expansion was cut! I'm sorry, but I think making hrothgar ears clip through a few ugly hairstyles is the least of their issues.

**Karowolus** · 06-28-2022 03:24 AM

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Snip because this is a link and you can read the post yourself.

Sturm, this is the thing.... This thread is about.. Our wishes for 6.2. It's OUR speculation of what could be added, it's what WE want for 6.2. You can be in support of us all you want, but the second you almost try to minimalize the issues we have? Lower quality assets my ass. Im sure you can deal with your tail being removed from armour for one piece of armour that you might not wear. Because guess what, we too. Have a tail, that gets removed when we wear this armour. We too, have terrible assets from heads that were literally reshaped to fit garbage hairstyles to body textures that make 32 bit look detailed. Sparse introduction of new hairstyles? I haven't had a new hairstyle since I started to play this game. Im happy with that. But when I'm given options, and the options are just displays of laziness and mediocrity from either the developer's side or the artist's side that are so obviously just ports of unwanted hairstyles because guess what...

MOST HUMANOID HAIRSTYLES DON'T FIT ONTO FACES WITH MUZZLES.

The thing is. We don't care if you were 'one of the first'. Because to those of us that have played for less time... We really don't care, it's not a race. All I care about is that the race that literally got me to buy the game is treated as well as the other races and not left to the side like some unwanted stepchild. This forum is not here for you to almost downplay the issues that we are pointing out about our race. This thread is for people to state what they'd like to see, improvements to HROTHGAR. Read. Hroth-gar.

Put simply... You are talking yourself into a hole, and we really aren't going to offer you a ladder to climb back up. You can't be talking about hairstyles and hrothgar in the same sentence and trying to make out that your hairstyle that will probably be locked behind RNG upon RNG that might be good, but might be absolute garbage is MORE IMPORTANT than the general fidelity of an entire RACE.

Like, as XiRon said, it sucks being basically told that the race I play is the reason their game development is so slow because they gave us an unfinished product by splitting focus between two races when they could have just...Y'know.... Released one then the other... Imagine knowing that there's people out there that think that way about you. But you wouldn't know that... As a race whose Male counterpart was only added due to FAN DEMAND. You'd think you'd be more in support of... Y'know. Other races getting the treatment that the fans are asking for.

**Midareyukki** · 06-28-2022 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Karowolus

Like, as XiRon said, it sucks being basically told that the race I play is the reason their game development is so slow because they gave us an unfinished product by splitting focus between two races when they could have just...Y'know.... Released one then the other...

The playerbase is honestly just as bad

We already have to deal with furry comments, because people just think furries are degenerates and can't come up with original jokes of their own.
We already had to deal with Viera players whinging that our race stole Male Viera from them.

Why is it that we have to deal with people insisting "Oh the devs designed this race to be like this in the first place, get over it"?

So much in this game had a design in mind and it got changed halfway through. So much in this game changed because the fans asked. Hell, this game only exists because fans asked and showed support for improvements. If you're such a player and you're that old, you'd know so:
- Male Miqo'te
- Female Roegadyn
- Genderlocked gear
- Now people are asking for Genderlocked gear to be removed, and they're slowly working on it
- A Gunblade-wielding class
- A Scythe-wielding class
- GPose and its utilities
- FFXI-style Bard Performance
- Improvements to older or controversial content (Eureka and Blue Mage)
- VIERA AS A WHOLE

The devs said nothing about us being designed this way on purpose on official statements. And if they were designed on purpose, it still doesn't matter because so much of this game was changed already due to fan support. So literally, what the hell. That's such a garbage statement to make, it's frankly an insult at this point. It's nothing more than gatekeeping and discrimination. One that grows worse because the devs keep dismissing us altogether. And that's where I pin the blame on: the devs should know that their silence and the way they've been treating us makes us too easy a target. It just feels like bullying in an MMO. It's not even toxic, it's just ridiculously sad. To know that you're going to be mistreated by the fanbase on Character Creation. To know that you're going to get told to "shut up and take it" by people who don't even know what it feels like.

Because we get it. A race is more than just coding or tweaking 3D polygons. But holy crap, listen to yourselves!

Honestly at this point it just feels like picking on us is too easy. So much for the good and inclusive community people insist on throwing at new players.

**SturmChurro** · 06-28-2022 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by Karowolus

...

They were never meant to be a full race from their inception, and that's where the issues stem. Don't worry I have made sure to include viera when I say I don't think hrothgar should have been added anymore. I like viera. The fact of the matter is the game would be better off without either, at least until it would have been sustainable for them to do the races right. Still, they are added, and Yoshida already addressed the matter. Getting anything in that patch is wishful thinking, getting an apology is probably the same, in my opinion. I mean, I won't rule out that they could get something sooner than later, but realistically speaking, I'd say you all might get a hair with ears by next expansion - if you are lucky. Who knows though, maybe Yoshida hasn't ruled out a hair with ears showing in an update sometime this expansion. I am in support of viera/hrothgar getting updates, but after three years of hoping for something of quality, I came to the realization that that is unlikely to ever happen, and thus the races should have never been added.

The reality is, they are a limited race. Even if Yoshida hasn't outright stated they were "limited" specifically, doesn't change that fact. They were never meant to get hairstyles OR headgear (not even glasses). Even when they said they would get hairstyles they were supposed to be racial specific. Hrothgar having to fantasia to switch their wig was acceptable from the outset. Now, obviously, I think SE underestimated how much people would have wanted to customize their hrothgar, but that's beside the point. They were designed in a corner, and now it's supposedly excessively difficult to update them the 'right' way. He definitely shouldn't have tried to placate the hrothgar community with those styles, however viera were getting hairs (of also suspect quality, just fit better on a viera head) and he probably didn't want hrothgar to feel left out.

The game was in a different state when they were added. I do think SE made an error in approving viera/hrothgar. It was their "last chance" to add races, and this good intention has turned sour. Granted, covid was right around the corner, and they had no way of knowing it. That simply made everything more difficult. Viera/hrothgar are part of the reason their development schedule is slowed, and that is a fact explained by Yoshida himself on how costly races are. Like, I'm sorry, but it's a fact. I also thought male viera shouldn't have been added so soon, and was against the prospect from the start. Now we have male viera who are just as limited as their female counterpart. So I am in agreement with many hrothgar players on that front. Without male viera maybe it would have been more plausible to update male hrothgar or female viera. Also, it wouldn't have set the precedent for female hrothgar - which will be just another drain on resources, unless they somehow overhaul how they add races by then.

**Midareyukki** · 06-28-2022 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by SturmChurro

which will be just another drain on resources, unless they somehow overhaul how they add races by then.

That's the rub, isn't it?

Like, hear me out.

Yes, hairs are not as straightforward as modders make it look like. Maybe. I don't know. I'm not a modder, I don't know if SE has strict standards, I don't know if a Hrothgar walking around with hair is a strain on anything. Making a mod for hair is easy, but it's not clear-cut. But SE didn't expand on their standards. All they gave us was "it's too hard" and ran away.
Yes, Hrothgar is a different race, not everything will fit. They need to work on things to fit, but they say stuff doesn't fit their criterion.
A criterion which isn't applied equally; they claim to dislike clipping... or at least, that we the playerbase don't like clipping. But even the final boss of Endwalker clips through itself. And some Hrothgar hairstyles clip through gearsets. It's not abnormal, many hairstyles do if they're long enough.

It's clear they need to overhaul our races, right? I mean, they're poorly designed to begin with, the it's done is a complete mess... And I've stated this before: I think that is why they're changing the races and some graphics.
I just think that by focusing on other races first and just throw low-end crap at us is going to hurt them in the long run. Because it's more and more stuff they'll need to address.

It's obvious it won't come in 6.2. Not such a sizeable change to the game. They NEED to overhaul how these races are, but for that they need time and resources. And what I've been saying so far is:
1 - They need to understand that the fans actually do want that overhaul
2 - They need to allocate resources for it
3 - They need to prepare themselves
Because what we got in 6.1 shows they didn't prepare, allocate time and resources. Just operated blindly.
We KNOW it's a drain. But it has to happen eventually. If it doesn't, then this will never change, and that isn't fair.
It obviously won't come in 6.2. But if we don't say anything, such an overhaul won't EVER come. You saw how 6.1 went. If we don't say anything, odds are they won't do anything at all.

The problem lies in communication, which is both sparse (they don't give enough\not often) and negligent (it's not transparent and misses the point). And given other topics, this one caused a large uproar. Yet BLM had a post, DRG had a post. We just had one comment.

On Viera, I don't want to exclude them. It's just that their situation hasn't escalated like ours has.

Just keep in mind though. You have good points. It's just that you essentially say "It should have been better, but it's not, so deal with it" when saying that we were designed like this and get over it. If I told YOU that, you wouldn't like it either, would you?

**kyyninen_kirahvi** · 06-28-2022 09:16 AM

Churro, none of these things at this point really matter anymore. While everything you've said is most likely true, the fact that hrothgars have been neglected and viera has had the spotlight is undeniable. Viera is the more customisable race. Male vieras are a thing.

Now shift the work on hroths, please. That's all that we ask. If the problem is the head, release the head customisation at the aesthetician. If only existing haircuts are added to all heads, make them good looking and let us keep our ears. If no race specific haircuts are made, LET US KNOW, and if they are, make them available with every head. Headgear would be nice for at least for the artifact sets. Square has had the time since hroth release to see what people want with them and now act surprised? If they have no interest in the race they should say it out right.

Hrothgars are filled with bad design but that is not an excuse to continue to do things badly.

**Hanayumi** · 06-27-2022 10:51 PM

They aren't going to make changes this soon though. Think at some point they get to fixing all this but far likely not till after fem hroth drops, at that point theres no more plans for new races, so really no excuse to not improve and expand on current races...

**XiRon** · 06-27-2022 11:03 PM

I feel like I should explain. This is a thread about hrothgar and our, very likely, unlikely wishes and dreams by 6.2 if not yknow THIS expansion. Not 7.0. Not female hrothgar exist in 8.58. Not 20 years after they added more pores to middy faces. This expansion. So I don't understand why nonhrothgar feel the need to point out how unloved hrothgar are. Apart from ANY TIME a hrothgar player says "hey its like so lame brand new additions to the game dont work on muh boi" everyone and their mother says some "you play hrothgar please neck yourself because YOU are halting dev time...playing a race they added to the game"-adjacent comments.
Its is ABUNDANTLY clear how much the devs have not wanted to work on hrothgar, no one here is blind.

**hfang** · 06-27-2022 11:11 PM

churro bro sometimes you just need to learn to stop talking

**Midareyukki** · 06-28-2022 09:24 AM

...how often will I (and other people for that matter) need to keep saying the same thing over and over?

Because seriously, this has derailed into the same usual dumb loop that we've had in 3 other threads.

Are people even reading what we write? Because this stuff's bloody obvious by now, just pay attention and read.

...So re-railing it back. 6.2's coming up eventually, I wonder if they will re-enable ears on the hairstyles they added. It's as simple as a boolean switch, so unless I'm missing something on their critera or standards, it should be easily done. Clipping is... unfortunate, but a part of virtually every 3D game afaik.
It's the bare minimum fans asked for after 6.1. So I'm with OP, they could at least re-enable those. If not, I wonder what sort of problems such a change causes that they'd be unwilling to do it. Surely it can't be polygon count? We don't even have ear animations o.o

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