Melee classes are sad in CC

[Lieri]

SAM 1 hit KO LB is sad indeed.

[Vermillionwing]

Monk needs buffs in CC, I literally joke that there aren't enough monk players around to verbally push for buffs. All my friends in crystal rank claim they barely see any monks, and usually they just ignore them as nonexistant, not even remotely threats on the priority scale.

Counterargument:
In the threads I see arguments like it has good cc, or it has best sustained damage or it has super fast lb. Just rev up your damage amp into a phantom rush.
The problem is that only happens in a vacuum, in actual fights cc'd and focused, you aren't applying that damage constantly. In execution it is more practical to short burst with your OGCDs and LB to avoid dying. Being a pocket LB is not a good class design

Understanding of the class:
A bulky assassin who can just waltz through enemies, ignoring or soaking most incoming fire and harass priority targets forever until you murder them with LB or they run away from the sight of you.
A sustained brawler who supplements overall team damage in engagements and provides various utilties in terms of shielding, some cc, being able to guard break and being able to soak/finish off targets that might be unreachable by other classes.
A harasser/decoy who can basically take a ton of abuse/cds from the enemy team, and steal all their healing potions and otherwise distracting multiple members of the enemy team, providing your team with tactical and numerical advantages near the objective.

Issues:
Low burst/early damage: A monk's "threat" range from a standstill is about 30-40% of an HP bar with a instant burst (not counting amp'd Phantom Rush), with LB that threat range goes up to around 60-70%. Among the DPS its on the fairly low side, but it is a reasonable exchange for being nearly unkillable (It currently isn't)

Survivability: Monk HAD great survival tools. Shield/healing potency has not increased/scaled with damage potency, and there are no % modifers in monk kit. Potency buffs on other classes render monk kit more and more ineffective, what takes 3 hits to crack through now takes 1 or 2 which is a huge % drop in effectiveness.

You can no longer soak 4 people beating on you without blinking, infact several times you can't even take 2 or 3 people beating on you at the same time, sometimes you can't even win a direct and isolated 1v1 (sounds like ARR, HW, and SB pvp monk no?)

Suggested Adjustments:
Increase Monk damage,retain current survivability: Frontload more potency into earlier moves, and ogcds or reduce the length of the combo string. In a burst heavy environment, monk needs early access damage.

OR

Return Monk survivability(preferred): Upscale monk shielding and healing to match with all the damage potency buffs. If you want to keep monk identity as sustained dps, it needs a way to be able to apply that dps in PVP's high burst and high cc environment. Possibly increase their cc/anti cc kit.

[Petite]

Monk needs buffs in CC

All I think MNK needs is a Form Shift skill that would trigger a 4 seconds GCD with every use (twice as long as one MNK GCD).

That way, they wouldn't be totally reliant on hitting enemies while still making the skill-shuffling process slow enough so they don't reach Phantom Rush too quickly.

[Gserpent]

Survivability: Monk HAD great survival tools. Shield/healing potency has not increased/scaled with damage potency, and there are no % modifers in monk kit. Potency buffs on other classes render monk kit more and more ineffective, what takes 3 hits to crack through now takes 1 or 2 which is a huge % drop in effectiveness.

You can no longer soak 4 people beating on you without blinking, infact several times you can't even take 2 or 3 people beating on you at the same time, sometimes you can't even win a direct and isolated 1v1 (sounds like ARR, HW, and SB pvp monk no?)

MNK should win 1v1 against almost any class, except perhaps NIN (who can just kite them for days.) Like, it shouldn't even be close. RPR might be the closest? Point about increasing potencies is valid and is a huge reason why I'm pretty annoyed that SE's stance on things seems to be JUST MAKE IT DO MORE DAMAGE LOL instead of addressing core issues classes might have. 6k is typically two GCDs, and that hasn't changed - SE is generally just bumping the potency on cooldowns, rather than fillers. And the more damage people do, the more healing (and damage) Riddle of Earth does.

It's fine, for now. Hopefully SE just gives an overall HP bump at some point, though.

Suggested Adjustments:
Increase Monk damage,retain current survivability: Frontload more potency into earlier moves, and ogcds or reduce the length of the combo string. In a burst heavy environment, monk needs early access damage.

OR

Return Monk survivability(preferred): Upscale monk shielding and healing to match with all the damage potency buffs. If you want to keep monk identity as sustained dps, it needs a way to be able to apply that dps in PVP's high burst and high cc environment. Possibly increase their cc/anti cc kit.

MNK damage and survivability is fine for now. I would like to see them change Riddle of Earth to always pop instead of needing a second action to activate (since similar effects like Macrocosmos *do* automatically pop, so it clearly can't be a balance thing.) That would function as a small buff to them.

As for not seeing MNK in crystal? Maybe your DC is different? MNK is very common on Crystal, though probably behind NIN. People on this DC seem to recognize how strong MNK is.

[KickRox]

I would like to see them change Riddle of Earth to always pop instead of needing a second action to activate (since similar effects like Macrocosmos *do* automatically pop, so it clearly can't be a balance thing.) That would function as a small buff to them.

As for not seeing MNK in crystal? Maybe your DC is different? MNK is very common on Crystal, though probably behind NIN. People on this DC seem to recognize how strong MNK is.

This is the only adjustment I think is warranted. I don't think nearly enough people at lower tiers understand just how powerful/valuable having the ability to take just about any enemy out of play every 60 seconds is at higher tiers. MNK doesn't have the front end burst that other melees do for that specific reason, if it did, why would anyone use DRG/SAM etc?

[KageTokage]

There are a lot of jobs that can pop off under optimal circumstances, but the problem lies in the fact that things like CC spam or even just aggressive focus-firing can very easily throw a wrench in your gameplan.

RPR is another example of a job with an extremely high burst damage ceiling but it can almost never make practical use of it due to how many conditions need to align without it being interrupted.

It's precisely why NIN is so good compared to the other melee because they can dump 30K+ damage in the span of two GCDs with basically no set-up involved then delete you with their LB afterward...which is made worse by the ones that are cheating with auto-LB scripts as you have literally no time to use Recuperate after getting pushed into the instakill threshold.

[Bloodthrone]

Look at it as a tank

Here's the problem with your logic if we wanted to play a TANK we would play a TANK RPR is a DPS and should act accordingly. I'll give you this much is good at cluching and decent at controlling the flow of the battlefield. Now given that you've never played RPR and you a speaking completely out of your ass I highly recommend you walk a mile in our shoes before you start talking down to us.

P.S: We also have literally the slowest bust timing in pvp compared to the other dps especially when we are consistently CCed into the ground and above all else on LB.

[Gserpent]

Look at it as a tank

Here's the problem with your logic if we wanted to play a TANK we would play a TANK RPR is a DPS and should act accordingly. I'll give you this much is good at cluching and decent at controlling the flow of the battlefield. Now given that you've never played RPR and you a speaking completely out of your ass I highly recommend you walk a mile in our shoes before you start talking down to us.

P.S: We also have literally the slowest bust timing in pvp compared to the other dps especially when we are consistently CCed into the ground and above all else on LB.

If you're saying things that are clearly indicating a lack of knowledge and skill, I am going to point them out. Reaper is a very strong class, but it is *not* a class you can mindlessly unga bunga like some other classes, particularly in high skill games. But if you actually learn how to play the class properly, you'll find it's very powerful. AOE guard break on 45 sec charge timer wins games, straight up.

As for the crap about roles? Dude, does it actually matter what the role says it is? GNB in DPS junction is basically a melee DPS. SGE is a caster DPS, with a few buffs and heals. Reaper is basically a tank. Who *cares* what the role is called, or what color it is? A class's actual function is defined by what it does in game, not what it says on a sheet of paper.

And Reaper is effectively a red tank. Its DPS, durability, and strong CC place it very firmly in line with all of the other tanks (GNB in tank/healer mode.)

[Bloodthrone]

Look at it as a tank

Here's the problem with your logic if we wanted to play a TANK we would play a TANK RPR is a DPS and should act accordingly. I'll give you this much is good at cluching and decent at controlling the flow of the battlefield. Now given that you've never played RPR and you a speaking completely out of your ass I highly recommend you walk a mile in our shoes before you start talking down to us.

P.S: We also have literally the slowest bust timing in pvp compared to the other dps especially when we are consistently CCed into the ground and above all else on LB.

I'm talking to you Gserpent!!!!

[Vermillionwing]

I agree that monk will win against pretty much any other class in 1v1, however they will win EVENTUALLY and in a VACUUM. Being the operative words, CC is a team game, not a duel. The higher up you go the more situationally aware everyone is. The window to isolate for that 1v1 is fairly narrow and it becomes a 2v1, 3v1, 4v1 within seconds. It takes time to ramp up to that sweet burst in the form of PR and LB, which you don't always have and sometimes you can't get to because you get instantly cc locked and focused down into the ground the moment you engage.

I've literally done things like chase a single player down (usually a healer/strong ranged player) single minded to the extent they've either given up and stayed in spawn or have immediately left the battle line at the sight of me because they knew they had no way of shaking me off without their team dumping most of their cds on me, and I would kill them eventually.


My argument is: On release monk basically had enough bulk to force a burst window open nearly indefinitely, it could take on 4v1 long enough to ramp up/dump burst and walk away. It could chase down a person nearly forever in 2v1 or even 3v1 situations safely. BUT with all the potency buffs across the board, the shield/healing buffs of monk have not been scaled to match up. As a burst/assassin type it relies on bulk to reach its optimal output but that bulk no longer exists.

Hence my suggestions that you either give it a way to frontload/reach optimal burst state faster, or you give it back its ability to reach optimal burst state by returning it to being an unkillable cockroach. Its never been about how big the burst is, its about actually managing to reach that burst.

As for not seeing MNK in crystal? Maybe your DC is different? MNK is very common on Crystal, though probably behind NIN. People on this DC seem to recognize how strong MNK is.

It was mostly ninja, dragoon and samurai on primal. I don't think the amount of monks other than myself go past 20 yet. Dunno if thats cause its a lower rank thing but my crystal buddies say they see almost no monk either. Maybe our luck is bad?