Melee classes are sad in CC

[MonteCristo]

@MonteCristo
I think before we start any discussion, it's important we accept that what we want a job to be and how the job is now as the devs intended it are different things. And also just because we want a job to be a certain way, the job not being so is different from it being objectively unusable.

The key to being better at the job is to adapt, use the tools you're given, personal biases aside. People have to accept that first, and then be able to differentiate "Job is bad" with "Job is bad because it's not what I want"

RPR is some mutant hybrid that plays Tank with a ranged until they become DPS/Debuffer with two total ranged. You have to accept that. Just because you don't, doesn't mean the job is broken.

If this is true why even label it dps? Why have roles at all?

[ShinyChariot]

what tier are u playing reaper at?

Diamond/Crystal, fool around on Casual. And I pay attention to what other reapers are doing, their stats and numbers at the end of the game etc.

If this is true why even label it dps? Why have roles at all?

Rigid job roles are a carryover from PvE and the devs seem to have made a decision to distance themselves from the idea that jobs must absolutely do what their role dictates in PvP. Having PvP jobs being designed under the restriction of roles would really limit the possibility and variety of ideas that can be implemented into them. Homogenization is a huge point of discussion in PvE and I'm glad they didn't make a point to make it so in PvP. It's simply the preconceived notion people are unable to grasp that PvP is simply different and job roles doesn't completely dictate the individual functions of a job. This is for the better of PvP mode, although some vocal people would complain that their favorite job has gotten the short end of the stick. Again, it seems to be coming down to people wanting a job to be a certain way, and they don't like how it's been interpreted in the game, they don't want to play it as intended, they try to play what feels most natural and exciting to them personally, and naturally it doesn't work as well as playing as intended. This is completely ignoring the factors of teammates, personal skill level, the rank you're in, etc. So you can imagine how complicated it gets and how it isn't so easy as to just point at the job, and say it's done wrong.

Not that I or many others have this issue personally, but I do understand how the way the devs kept the PvE presentation of Job Roles in PvP can cause misunderstandings. The PvP jobs skirt the line of just being appropriate for their roles but not really. Extreme cases being SGE, which is just a DPS class with support spells.

I can't really say much other than "You've misunderstood, you must accept this reality as it is the current state of things".

I don't agree with PvP jobs representing roles more than their individuality. I don't want a PvP where each job is the same with a different skin because some people have the preconceived notion that they're supposed to fit in a certain box. I love the creativity and diversity that the departure from traditional roles bring to PvP.

I mean, people should just GET OVER the roles already. Quit obsessing over it, it's arbitrary, it's irrelevant. It's different, just accept that.

All things considered i will say that maybe my flaws come from not playing reaper like a tank but if that is truly the way then pvp may not be for me because i feel like what they sold us on reaper originally is very inconsistent to the way we are actually supposed to play the job.

I mean, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's steps to improving on RPR, first you learn how to play like a tank and when it gets comfortable you learn how to make risky DPS decisions and maybe you get teammates that'll let you absolutely rip and tear and have the other team running around like headless chickens constantly.

That's the issue I face most of the time when I talk with players that are attached to strict Job Roles.

Them : RPR is supposed to be a DPS!
Me : It kind of is but it also kind of plays like a tank.
Them : Then it's a TANK! Me no play TANK!
Me : Well, not really. It's still a DPS, but you just have tools to let you survive.
Them : Then RPR is DPS?!
Me : No, no, no. It's not any of those, PvP doesn't really have roles like that.
Them : Which role is RPR?!
Me : It's like a tanky, debuffer, DPS, that has ranged abilities, designed to jump in and out and build LB to spam.
Them : But RPR supposed to be DPS?!
Me :

Reaper is just reaper. Learn to tank, git gud at survival and how to choose your battles, then you can play it like a DPS.

[Bloodthrone]

That's the issue I face most of the time when I talk with players that are attached to strict Job Roles.

Them : RPR is supposed to be a DPS!
Me : It kind of is but it also kind of plays like a tank.
Them : Then it's a TANK! Me no play TANK!
Me : Well, not really. It's still a DPS, but you just have tools to let you survive.
Them : Then RPR is DPS?!
Me : No, no, no. It's not any of those, PvP doesn't really have roles like that.
Them : Which role is RPR?!
Me : It's like a tanky, debuffer, DPS, that has ranged abilities, designed to jump in and out and build LB to spam.
Them : But RPR supposed to be DPS?!
Me :

Reaper is just reaper. Learn to tank, git gud at survival and how to choose your battles, then you can play it like a DPS.[/QUOTE]

I would argue the class design for RPR is somewhat poor though. They intend this class to play Tank and Dps at the same time and make both sides kind of mediocre so both sides work off each other which leads to a very tedious play style which most other classes don't go through. That's a problem in the long run and having a consistent play style would greatly improve the experience and make RPR less redundant.

[Gserpent]

I would argue the class design for RPR is somewhat poor though. They intend this class to play Tank and Dps at the same time and make both sides kind of mediocre so both sides work off each other which leads to a very tedious play style which most other classes don't go through. That's a problem in the long run and having a consistent play style would greatly improve the experience and make RPR less redundant.

RPR isn't mediocre, though. Its DPS is quite good for a tank, and it is *by far* the most durable melee. Giving your team a cure 3 every 20 sec is huge in teamfights. Death Warrant can result in large burst amounts when stacked properly and their LB is probably one of the top 3 in the entire game.

The class isn't playing against itself. It works very, very well. It's possible that you have more work to do on your knowledge of the class and how it fits into various scenarios, but that's not something SE can fix with a patch. All of your suggested changes would do nothing but make the class overpowered and turn it into the next BLM. The class is fine and quite strong - I think you just need more practice with it, and maybe less trying to force it to be a MNK or DRG and more playing it as it's designed to be.

[MonteCristo]

RPR isn't mediocre, though. Its DPS is quite good for a tank, and it is *by far* the most durable melee. Giving your team a cure 3 every 20 sec is huge in teamfights. Death Warrant can result in large burst amounts when stacked properly and their LB is probably one of the top 3 in the entire game.

The class isn't playing against itself. It works very, very well. It's possible that you have more work to do on your knowledge of the class and how it fits into various scenarios, but that's not something SE can fix with a patch. All of your suggested changes would do nothing but make the class overpowered and turn it into the next BLM. The class is fine and quite strong - I think you just need more practice with it, and maybe less trying to force it to be a MNK or DRG and more playing it as it's designed to be.

What do u say to all the players, reddit, discord, youtubers and tier lists that consistently rank it as the lowest grade melee dps currently. Including the higher skilled reapers who also agree? (I have receipts dont worry).

[Gserpent]

What do u say to all the players, reddit, discord, youtubers and tier lists that consistently rank it as the lowest grade melee dps currently. Including the higher skilled reapers who also agree? (I have receipts dont worry).

I'd say they don't know what they're talking about, frankly. And they're probably judging RPR by "omg low DPS" because they don't understand RPR's actual role and purpose.

Buffs and nerfs to classes will happen if they happen. I don't think RPR really needs any, and I think that if it does meaningfully more DPS than it does now, the class will be greatly overpowered because of all the other things it brings to the table... when played correctly. We'll have to wait for 6.2 to see how SE seems to want to handle things. They've mentioned they look at win rates and pick rates, but SCH is pretty near the bottom (especially in pick rates), yet it received no changes in 6.18 - which is good, because it doesn't need any.

So I'm on hopium here, taking it as a potential good sign that they can look beyond questionable data like pick rates and win rates to more objectively measure classes and determine whether or not they need changes. But it'll be 6.2 before we can really make a judgement call either way.

I think RPR could receive some QoL changes or minor buffs here or there and it not really affect anything. "Balanced" doesn't necessarily mean "will become unbalanced if anything changes." But we're talking like a small reduction to Communio cast time, or reducing LB cast animation to 0.80 sec from 1.00 sec, stuff like that. Certainly not the kinds of things people have been asking for in this thread, for the most part.

[ShinyChariot]

They've mentioned they look at win rates and pick rates, but SCH is pretty near the bottom (especially in pick rates), yet it received no changes in 6.18 - which is good, because it doesn't need any.

SCH is based. I can attest to that.

[MonteCristo]

I'd say they don't know what they're talking about, frankly. And they're probably judging RPR by "omg low DPS" because they don't understand RPR's actual role and purpose.

Buffs and nerfs to classes will happen if they happen. I don't think RPR really needs any, and I think that if it does meaningfully more DPS than it does now, the class will be greatly overpowered because of all the other things it brings to the table... when played correctly. We'll have to wait for 6.2 to see how SE seems to want to handle things. They've mentioned they look at win rates and pick rates, but SCH is pretty near the bottom (especially in pick rates), yet it received no changes in 6.18 - which is good, because it doesn't need any.

So I'm on hopium here, taking it as a potential good sign that they can look beyond questionable data like pick rates and win rates to more objectively measure classes and determine whether or not they need changes. But it'll be 6.2 before we can really make a judgement call either way.

I think RPR could receive some QoL changes or minor buffs here or there and it not really affect anything. "Balanced" doesn't necessarily mean "will become unbalanced if anything changes." But we're talking like a small reduction to Communio cast time, or reducing LB cast animation to 0.80 sec from 1.00 sec, stuff like that. Certainly not the kinds of things people have been asking for in this thread, for the most part.

I have to admit i took your advice....got solid but limited(limited=was already doing alot of what was advised) advice from rpr mentors on pvp revival, watched some more selfhelp CC guides,talked with a few other high ranked rprs, adjusted my strat to hybrid tank, and changed my approach to the job. All to find out that....you are still wrong about the job being "just fine the way it is"

[ShinyChariot]

RPR isn't mediocre, though. Its DPS is quite good for a tank, and it is *by far* the most durable melee.

True and real.

If you don't know how to retreat without dying you might need to play something else. Teleport gives you movement speed and barrier should be back up during your retreat, not to mention you even might have a heavy debuff to use to keep people behind you while you run to the next potion. How are people dying on reaper? You should be chugging potions every 2 engagements.

Giving your team a cure 3 every 20 sec is huge in teamfights. Death Warrant can result in large burst amounts when stacked properly and their LB is probably one of the top 3 in the entire game.

This. People just don't know how to barrier and burst on one target. I have no idea how people are unable to do this.

And I mentioned barrier specifically because a lot of supposed reaper mains probably don't even know you meant the barrier when you said "cure 3". They'll look over their hot bar, see that it doesn't have an AoE heal, and tell you for the 10th time you don't get to have an opinion because you don't play it. Because apparently, playing it means you get to talk about it like you know it, which a lot of people don't seem to. Reaper is not that hard to understand for people with PvP brains, and you obviously do, I don't care if you didn't play it, because you're right.

The class isn't playing against itself. It works very, very well. It's possible that you have more work to do on your knowledge of the class and how it fits into various scenarios, but that's not something SE can fix with a patch. All of your suggested changes would do nothing but make the class overpowered and turn it into the next BLM. The class is fine and quite strong - I think you just need more practice with it, and maybe less trying to force it to be a MNK or DRG and more playing it as it's designed to be.

Man if they overpower reaper and any idiot gets to be "good" at it because they gave it potency and skill adjustments even a caveman could use, I'd...

...continue to dunk people on reaper because I still know how to play it properly. Thanks for the power-up.

Honestly it doesn't matter how many times they change or buff it, you can't fix a player's bad decisions, unawareness when it comes to the situation, or inability to not get killed. People that are good at a class have nothing to complain about. I was great at the first version of BLM and wondered what all the fuss was about.

Yoshi P said it himself.

"Having said this, my personal impression after countless Crystalline Conflict matches is that, in the hands of a skilled PvP combatant, the black mage has more than enough potential to excel in battle."
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...ac1af14c1e3107

Some people just aren't skilled RPR players. Hopefully they know this is the case and just leave RPRs alone, besides some small adjustments. Honestly, people, go play something else, don't dumb down this job.