Melee classes are sad in CC

[Gserpent]

Man the level of play on crystal must be really trash lol.

Who knows? I think we can probably assume JP DCs are better than everyone else given that their bottom 100 rating tends to be a *lot* higher than everyone else's (wasn't Mana's like 5500 or something?), but I doubt there's a lot of difference between the different NA and EU DCs. If alts weren't so annoying to create and manage, I'd probably be interested in making a Primal and Aether alt just to see. But it's just way too much time investment for me to be interested in.

[Gserpent]

MNK LB is obnoxious but they are the last viable melee we have. As a NIN you'll never get your LB off in ranked because some WHM or PLD will cuck you and outside of the LB pressure, every time you stealth you are also easy to guard against. Outside of those two windows there's no melee pressure from a NIN unlike MNK and DRG that always bring the heat. You already see more MNKs and soon you'll see more DRGs than NINs in due time.

NIN has a different role than MNK, DRG, etc. They're opportunists and sweepers. They're not rush-down like MNK or DRG, and they aren't brawlers like RPR and MNK. The most effective way to play NIN is to just be a massive pain in the ass for the enemy team. They're really good at scooping up medpacks behind enemy lines so the enemy can't use them, flinging darts to delay elixir use, and picking off players with low HP/low MP with Assassinate+Hyosho/Raiju burst. NIN LB is kind of just "there." It's great for punishing people that try to greed or think Guard will save them, but it's not really necessary and it's very rare you'll get to chain it unless the enemy team made a huge error (like getting dunked on by a DRG and then getting AOE CC'd by a RPR, WAR, WHM, etc or something.)

If you're worried about getting poly'd out of an LB or other attack... don't use it until you've forced out the poly? It's not rocket science. Though, honestly, forcing out a poly on a "useless" LB like NIN instead of an important one like DRG or preventing them from using it to kill or peel is probably a net gain for your team, anyway.

[Bureda]

NIN has a different role than MNK, DRG, etc. They're opportunists and sweepers. They're not rush-down like MNK or DRG, and they aren't brawlers like RPR and MNK. The most effective way to play NIN is to just be a massive pain in the ass for the enemy team. They're really good at scooping up medpacks behind enemy lines so the enemy can't use them, flinging darts to delay elixir use, and picking off players with low HP/low MP with Assassinate+Hyosho/Raiju burst. NIN LB is kind of just "there." It's great for punishing people that try to greed or think Guard will save them, but it's not really necessary and it's very rare you'll get to chain it unless the enemy team made a huge error (like getting dunked on by a DRG and then getting AOE CC'd by a RPR, WAR, WHM, etc or something.)

If you're worried about getting poly'd out of an LB or other attack... don't use it until you've forced out the poly? It's not rocket science. Though, honestly, forcing out a poly on a "useless" LB like NIN instead of an important one like DRG or preventing them from using it to kill or peel is probably a net gain for your team, anyway.

What the fuck are you talking about? Do you even play this game?

[ShinyChariot]

But what if it is a skill issue? RPR and DNC seems to be the biggest hit or miss jobs for me when I get matched with them on PVP, 90% of the time, it's a miss. I played both for several weeks and I'm playing to their strengths pretty well. The thing is, you can just read the tool tips for the job to understand how it's supposed to work, and after playing it myself and feeling out the relationship it has with other jobs in the ally and enemy team, I can say Gserpent is accurate in describing how it's assumed to work with what you can derive from tooltips.

The LB is very good. Bind, potency, fear, range cast. Barrier that gives HoT which can outheal other healers if used right. It's got so many tools, it's obvious it has a high skill ceiling to play properly. Raw damage isn't everything. Getting CCed is something you're supposed to work around, sometimes you're not supposed to get everything out of a RPR LB. It's different from the other melee, but people are determined to play it like one just because it has a red icon. Like SGE isn't really a healer. You're supposed to have taken the most damage over the match, because you're planning retreats, recouping, and teleporting into battle like a tank. You're supposed to have done insane amounts of healing by using your barrier properly.

Of course all this on top of having a team that works with you.

So if you need some credibility for Gserpent's opinion. Here it is.

[ShinyChariot]

NIN has a different role than MNK, DRG, etc. They're opportunists and sweepers. They're not rush-down like MNK or DRG, and they aren't brawlers like RPR and MNK. The most effective way to play NIN is to just be a massive pain in the ass for the enemy team. They're really good at scooping up medpacks behind enemy lines so the enemy can't use them, flinging darts to delay elixir use, and picking off players with low HP/low MP with Assassinate+Hyosho/Raiju burst. NIN LB is kind of just "there." It's great for punishing people that try to greed or think Guard will save them, but it's not really necessary and it's very rare you'll get to chain it unless the enemy team made a huge error (like getting dunked on by a DRG and then getting AOE CC'd by a RPR, WAR, WHM, etc or something.)

If you're worried about getting poly'd out of an LB or other attack... don't use it until you've forced out the poly? It's not rocket science. Though, honestly, forcing out a poly on a "useless" LB like NIN instead of an important one like DRG or preventing them from using it to kill or peel is probably a net gain for your team, anyway.

I believe the mistake that's being made here is that if you describe a job being played at a different tier/meta and applying all the layers and mind games that take place in one level of play as opposed to another, it's going to sound like a completely different job/game. People are going to have difficulty understanding the different required playstyles. Chess vs Rock'em Sock'em robots.

[KhudusQestir]

I'm just gonna post this here.

As people have recommended in other threads. When you see a gserpent post, just skip it as of there was no post yet

[MonteCristo]

@shinychariot Thank you for playing the job and actually coming into the conversation with tact and credibility. Now to your points.

1) Our LB on paper does sound likes its "holyshwtf" BUT here is the unfortunate and very accurate reality...the MOMENT i hit gold on rpr...enemy teams cced me to PIECES nearly every time i used my LB. They knew exactly how it worked and they knew exactly how to counter it every time. The moment we activate lb we starting glowing and become a very obvious target. Then silence/stun/sleep to death or until it runs out because the timer is much lower than in pve. Hell u can even be mid cast on communio and it doesnt go off because the timer goes out. It ends up wasted alot of the time against any enemies with half a brain to be brutally honest.

2) crest....why tf was a dps increase tied to a defensive skill. It makes me choose between activating it for dps rather than actually using it to protect myself majority of the time which feels extremely counter intuitive. It feels lazy by design, id like to have to option to protect myself or plan my already limited dps bursts without having to give up one over the other since its all baked into one skill.

3) This one is personal....quote--"It's different from the other melee, but people are determined to play it like one just because it has a red icon / You're supposed to have taken the most damage over the match, because you're planning retreats, recouping, and teleporting into battle like a tank."

Listen...i have been playing/supporting this game since 1.0 beta and i had to wait YEARS to see the job i finally wanted to play which was a darkness based dps. I had to endure paladin warrior etc until finally dark knight was announced. Then guess what? They made it a tank and i was forced yet again to play a non dps for several more years until reaper was finally released as the dps i was praying dark knight to be. I say all that to say this....people dont care about what the devs intend a job to play like. We choose our jobs based on how much we love the design and what role it is. I waited years to play a darkness based dps and after drk was a major disappointment imagine being told to play reaper as a half assed/half baked tank or ultimately suffer being written off as "unskilled" or trash...... Ironic huh?

[Gserpent]

What the fuck are you talking about? Do you even play this game?

How NIN works in CC.

[Gserpent]

@shinychariot Thank you for playing the job and actually coming into the conversation with tact and credibility. Now to your points.

1) Our LB on paper does sound likes its "holyshwtf" BUT here is the unfortunate and very accurate reality...the MOMENT i hit gold on rpr...enemy teams cced me to PIECES nearly every time i used my LB. They knew exactly how it worked and they knew exactly how to counter it every time. The moment we activate lb we starting glowing and become a very obvious target. Then silence/stun/sleep to death or until it runs out because the timer is much lower than in pve. Hell u can even be mid cast on communio and it doesnt go off because the timer goes out. It ends up wasted alot of the time against any enemies with half a brain to be brutally honest.

Losing an ability because you activated a cooldown too early or didn't manage your GCDs properly isn't something exclusive to RPR or even PvP. How many PLDs you see losing the second buffed Goring Blade because they popped FoF too early? You know the cast time for Communio and you know the buff duration for the Lemurum stacks... so unless you're CC'd during the last second or two (in which case the enemy was just playing intelligently and denying you your highest burst damage ability), losing a Communio cast is just you making a mistake. It happens, people make mistakes. It's not something that needs to be changed, though. PLD can lose their blades combo from LB, too. CC'ing/kiting MNK so that their combo ends before they can dump their 15k AOE is also a common thing. It's intentional design.

Okay, so you get CC'd after you LB - sucks to be you, right? But that's CC that isn't going on your teammates, and RPR isn't an ideal focus target because of the escape teleport and Crest. You can't look at things like it's a 1v5 or a 1v1 or something - it's a 5v5 game, and if you can force the enemy team to use their resources less efficiently than you are using yours, your team is coming out ahead. Remember that even if you get nothing but a single Communio out of your LB buff, you still had the 2 sec CC and guard break at the beginning of everything.

2) crest....why tf was a dps increase tied to a defensive skill. It makes me choose between activating it for dps rather than actually using it to protect myself majority of the time which feels extremely counter intuitive. It feels lazy by design, id like to have to option to protect myself or plan my already limited dps bursts without having to give up one over the other since its all baked into one skill.

Generally speaking, you are going to be using the DPS amp at the same time you're setting up Death Warrant. This requires you to get several GCDs off on the target in sequence, which tends to mean you'll be in danger during this time. If they attack you, Crest pops and gives your team a 12k heal. If they ignore you to avoid popping the shield, you're getting all the Death Warrant stacking you want. You just gotta use it at the right time and place. Both skills have the same 20 sec cooldown, so it's pretty rare that you won't be using them together.

3) This one is personal....quote--"It's different from the other melee, but people are determined to play it like one just because it has a red icon / You're supposed to have taken the most damage over the match, because you're planning retreats, recouping, and teleporting into battle like a tank."

Listen...i have been playing/supporting this game since 1.0 beta and i had to wait YEARS to see the job i finally wanted to play which was a darkness based dps. I had to endure paladin warrior etc until finally dark knight was announced. Then guess what? They made it a tank and i was forced yet again to play a non dps for several more years until reaper was finally released as the dps i was praying dark knight to be. I say all that to say this....people dont care about what the devs intend a job to play like. We choose our jobs based on how much we love the design and what role it is. I waited years to play a darkness based dps and after drk was a major disappointment imagine being told to play reaper as a half assed/half baked tank or ultimately suffer being written off as "unskilled" or trash...... Ironic huh?

That's not ironic. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is. If you don't want to play a tank, then RPR isn't the class you want to play. As I and others have suggested repeatedly, if you want to play a melee DPS, your best bet is going to be a MNK if you want to be a brawler, or NIN if you want flexibility and mobility. Bitching that RPR doesn't do enough DPS or whatever, when it's not designed as a DPS, is just foolishness.

[ShinyChariot]

@MonteCristo
I think before we start any discussion, it's important we accept that what we want a job to be and how the job is now as the devs intended it are different things. And also just because we want a job to be a certain way, the job not being so is different from it being objectively unusable.

The key to being better at the job is to adapt, use the tools you're given, personal biases aside. People have to accept that first, and then be able to differentiate "Job is bad" with "Job is bad because it's not what I want"

RPR is some mutant hybrid that plays Tank with a ranged until they become DPS/Debuffer with two total ranged. You have to accept that. Just because you don't, doesn't mean the job is broken.