Melee classes are sad in CC

[ShinyChariot]

1) Our LB on paper does sound likes its "holyshwtf"...

Things will always change when you get into different tiers. Warriors can haphazardly rend into a group of 5 with no repercussions in Bronze. You do that in higher tiers, you're gonna die. Gserpent is valid when he says you have to bait out CCs before you go do anything nuts. But on different tiers, none of that makes sense because nobody even thinks about that or has to do it. And the enemy has to have an established strategy to even get the proper reactions out of them, but if they don't even have that, what are you even trying to bait? They're blind and can't smell, what's the use of dangling bait in front of something that can't react to it at all?

People can mention a billion benefits a job has in higher tiers completely missing the fact that such layers of meta may not exist in other tiers.

Crystal : "RPR LB can bypass guard."

Diamond: "Omg, I can see how that can be so useful."

Bronze : "WHAT'S GUARD? ENEMY TEAM DOESN'T EVEN USE GUARD? POSSIBLE TO TIME! WHAT IF I'M GUARDING TOO? I JUST IMMEDIATELY USE BLUE BUTTON WHEN I STEP ON CRYSTAL! WHO CARES? TRASH EFFECT! RPR LB TRASH!"

RPR can spam their LB and keep them in fear/bind and focused on you so your team can clean them up. It's not gonna work if your team is trash and won't capitalize. No matter what you play in this game, you're never going to turn anything around by yourself (Unless SAM) and your spammable LB that's the only melee LB that doesn't end in just one big damage. You actually have to do things. You're not getting POTG every time.

Just because your team can't take advantage of the advantages you're giving them, doesn't mean RPR is bad.

Maybe you're not a good teammate, Maybe your entire team is an uncoordinated mess.

You're never always going to get everything out of a RPR LB, that's why you can use it so often, spam that line AoE that recharges it, get some kills and assists to tack some DPS on that skill. Newsflash, sucky RPRs probably can't keep this on cooldown or don't even know it gives LB

Me personally, I always keep barrier for before I teleport in and use cone heavy into LB, I make sure my team is around me so they can pick up the pieces like pigeons, I make sure I use AoE bind first on one of them, go ham for a few seconds, if they're walking away from me, guess what? The teleport gives me movement speed, I've done enough melee damage or my timer is running out (which you should be paying attention to like MNK's Earth Reply), I teleport away and use Communio. If I feel like I'm gonna get my cheeks smashed, I accept I did enough with the Debuffs and retreat. Maybe fire off a Communio with Harvest on my way out, which does great damage as well. Then get back to charging my LB.

[MonteCristo]

Things will always change when you get into different tiers. Warriors can haphazardly rend into a group of 5 with no repercussions in Bronze. You do that in higher tiers, you're gonna die. Gserpent is valid when he says you have to bait out CCs before you go do anything nuts. But on different tiers, none of that makes sense because nobody even thinks about that or has to do it. And the enemy has to have an established strategy to even get the proper reactions out of them, but if they don't even have that, what are you even trying to bait? They're blind and can't smell, what's the use of dangling bait in front of something that can't react to it at all?

People can mention a billion benefits a job has in higher tiers completely missing the fact that such layers of meta may not exist in other tiers.

RPR can spam their LB and keep them in fear/bind and focused on you so your team can clean them up. It's not gonna work if your team is trash and won't capitalize. No matter what you play in this game, you're never going to turn anything around by yourself (Unless SAM) and your spammable LB that's the only melee LB that doesn't end in just one big damage. You actually have to do things. You're not getting POTG every time.

Just because your team can't take advantage of the advantages you're giving them, doesn't mean RPR is bad.

Maybe you're not a good teammate, Maybe your entire team is an uncoordinated mess.

You're never always going to get everything out of a RPR LB, that's why you can use it so often, spam that line AoE that recharges it, get some kills and assists to tack some DPS on that skill. Newsflash, sucky RPRs probably can't keep this on cooldown or don't even know it gives LB

Me personally, I always keep barrier for before I teleport in and use cone heavy into LB, I make sure my team is around me so they can pick up the pieces like pigeons, I make sure I use AoE bind first on one of them, go ham for a few seconds, if they're walking away from me, guess what? The teleport gives me movement speed, I've done enough melee damage or my timer is running out (which you should be paying attention to like MNK's Earth Reply), I teleport away and use Communio. If I feel like I'm gonna get my cheeks smashed, I accept I did enough with the Debuffs and retreat. Maybe fire off a Communio with Harvest on my way out, which does great damage as well. Then get back to charging my LB.

what tier are u playing reaper at? My highest experience before getting burnt out was gold 1 right before platinum but it sounds like we have differing experiences because i almost always get focused and thats regardless of whether or not i was successful at baiting ccs or not. Another reason we are asking for change is truly feel without bias that our LB is one of the most easily punishable LBs by far.

[ShinyChariot]

@MonteCristo
I think before we start any discussion, it's important we accept that what we want a job to be and how the job is now as the devs intended it are different things. And also just because we want a job to be a certain way, the job not being so is different from it being objectively unusable.

The key to being better at the job is to adapt, use the tools you're given, personal biases aside. People have to accept that first, and then be able to differentiate "Job is bad" with "Job is bad because it's not what I want"

RPR is some mutant hybrid that plays Tank with a ranged until they become DPS/Debuffer with two total ranged. You have to accept that. Just because you don't, doesn't mean the job is broken.

[Neoyoshi]

I do enjoy me some good ol' fashion Monk tears.

[ShinyChariot]

2) crest....why tf was a dps increase tied to a defensive skill...

You pop it before you go in and when it breaks, and your health is falling off and your MP is low (I see so many dummies dying with full MP bars, it's infuriating), or you're gonna die, you teleport away, pop heals, eat a kit, potion, until shield and tele is back up so you can take another dive. In and out, in and out. You're supposed to use it for BOTH DPS and barrier. You can walk and chew gum at the same time. It even has a neat little sound when it breaks to let you know to start worrying about getting away, how nice. RPR is awesome. Instead of being attached to what you want, you need to understand the intentions and then use it as intended. It's very useful, just not the way you want.

3) Had to play paladin bard warrior etc until finally dark knight was announced. Then guess what? They made it a mf tank and was forced to play a non dps for several more years until reaper was finally released as the dps i was praying for dark knight to be. I say all that to say this....people dont care about what the devs intend a job to play like. We choose our jobs based on how much me love it and what role in battle it plays. I waited years to play a dark based dps and after drk was a major disappoint imagine being told to play reaper and a half baked tank or suffer being written off as "unskilled". Ironic huh?

I understand how you feel, and I too find it puzzling the decisions devs make sometimes, but it's not too out there to where it's not too difficult to see where they're coming from.


You're not "Unskilled", this is a bit more complicated than that? I can't tell you to change how you feel about things or else I'd ask if you've tried abandoning your perceptions and expectations that you've fostered over many years.

But for your enjoyment, you'll do enough in PvP if you make the most with what you're given, if you survive, if you're alive to deal damage, if you're smart and know when to min max engagement/DPS/Health/disengagement. Manage your burst windows and compile all your abilities into an explosive moment that all synergize with each other.

You're gonna be a beast on both RPR and DRK.

And you know what the gigachads say, every job is a DPS if you play it right. Tank is just Blue DPS, Healer is green DPS.

You learn how to use what they give you, you're always going to do more damage on a tank/healer than a DPS that chews crayons.

And guess what, even though the numbers aren't the same as a real DPS, it definitely will feel like you're destroying things.

[MonteCristo]

You pop it before you go in and when it breaks, and your health is falling off and your MP is low (I see so many dummies dying with full MP bars, it's infuriating), or you're gonna die, you teleport away, pop heals, eat a kit, potion, until shield and tele is back up so you can take another dive. In and out, in and out. You're supposed to use it for BOTH DPS and barrier. You can walk and chew gum at the same time. It even has a neat little sound when it breaks to let you know to start worrying about getting away, how nice. RPR is awesome. Instead of being attached to what you want, you need to understand the intentions and then use it as intended. It's very useful, just not the way you want.



I understand how you feel, and I too find it puzzling the decisions devs make sometimes, but it's not too out there to where it's not too difficult to see where they're coming from.


You're not "Unskilled", this is a bit more complicated than that? I can't tell you to change how you feel about things or else I'd ask if you've tried abandoning your perceptions and expectations that you've fostered over many years.

But for your enjoyment, you'll do enough in PvP if you make the most with what you're given, if you survive, if you're alive to deal damage, if you're smart and know when to min max engagement/DPS/Health/disengagement. Manage your burst windows and compile all your abilities into an explosive moment that all synergize with each other.

You're gonna be a beast on both RPR and DRK.

And you know what the gigachads say, every job is a DPS if you play it right. Tank is just Blue DPS, Healer is green DPS.

You learn how to use what they give you, you're always going to do more damage on a tank/healer than a DPS that chews crayons.

And guess what, even though the numbers aren't the same as a real DPS, it definitely will feel like you're destroying things.

All things considered i will say that maybe my flaws come from not playing reaper like a tank but if that is truly the way then pvp may not be for me because i feel like what they sold us on reaper originally is very inconsistent to the way we are actually supposed to play the job.

[MonteCristo]

@MonteCristo
I think before we start any discussion, it's important we accept that what we want a job to be and how the job is now as the devs intended it are different things. And also just because we want a job to be a certain way, the job not being so is different from it being objectively unusable.

The key to being better at the job is to adapt, use the tools you're given, personal biases aside. People have to accept that first, and then be able to differentiate "Job is bad" with "Job is bad because it's not what I want"

RPR is some mutant hybrid that plays Tank with a ranged until they become DPS/Debuffer with two total ranged. You have to accept that. Just because you don't, doesn't mean the job is broken.

If this is true why even label it dps? Why have roles at all?

[ShinyChariot]

what tier are u playing reaper at?

Diamond/Crystal, fool around on Casual. And I pay attention to what other reapers are doing, their stats and numbers at the end of the game etc.

If this is true why even label it dps? Why have roles at all?

Rigid job roles are a carryover from PvE and the devs seem to have made a decision to distance themselves from the idea that jobs must absolutely do what their role dictates in PvP. Having PvP jobs being designed under the restriction of roles would really limit the possibility and variety of ideas that can be implemented into them. Homogenization is a huge point of discussion in PvE and I'm glad they didn't make a point to make it so in PvP. It's simply the preconceived notion people are unable to grasp that PvP is simply different and job roles doesn't completely dictate the individual functions of a job. This is for the better of PvP mode, although some vocal people would complain that their favorite job has gotten the short end of the stick. Again, it seems to be coming down to people wanting a job to be a certain way, and they don't like how it's been interpreted in the game, they don't want to play it as intended, they try to play what feels most natural and exciting to them personally, and naturally it doesn't work as well as playing as intended. This is completely ignoring the factors of teammates, personal skill level, the rank you're in, etc. So you can imagine how complicated it gets and how it isn't so easy as to just point at the job, and say it's done wrong.

Not that I or many others have this issue personally, but I do understand how the way the devs kept the PvE presentation of Job Roles in PvP can cause misunderstandings. The PvP jobs skirt the line of just being appropriate for their roles but not really. Extreme cases being SGE, which is just a DPS class with support spells.

I can't really say much other than "You've misunderstood, you must accept this reality as it is the current state of things".

I don't agree with PvP jobs representing roles more than their individuality. I don't want a PvP where each job is the same with a different skin because some people have the preconceived notion that they're supposed to fit in a certain box. I love the creativity and diversity that the departure from traditional roles bring to PvP.

I mean, people should just GET OVER the roles already. Quit obsessing over it, it's arbitrary, it's irrelevant. It's different, just accept that.

All things considered i will say that maybe my flaws come from not playing reaper like a tank but if that is truly the way then pvp may not be for me because i feel like what they sold us on reaper originally is very inconsistent to the way we are actually supposed to play the job.

I mean, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's steps to improving on RPR, first you learn how to play like a tank and when it gets comfortable you learn how to make risky DPS decisions and maybe you get teammates that'll let you absolutely rip and tear and have the other team running around like headless chickens constantly.

That's the issue I face most of the time when I talk with players that are attached to strict Job Roles.

Them : RPR is supposed to be a DPS!
Me : It kind of is but it also kind of plays like a tank.
Them : Then it's a TANK! Me no play TANK!
Me : Well, not really. It's still a DPS, but you just have tools to let you survive.
Them : Then RPR is DPS?!
Me : No, no, no. It's not any of those, PvP doesn't really have roles like that.
Them : Which role is RPR?!
Me : It's like a tanky, debuffer, DPS, that has ranged abilities, designed to jump in and out and build LB to spam.
Them : But RPR supposed to be DPS?!
Me :

Reaper is just reaper. Learn to tank, git gud at survival and how to choose your battles, then you can play it like a DPS.

[Bloodthrone]

That's the issue I face most of the time when I talk with players that are attached to strict Job Roles.

Them : RPR is supposed to be a DPS!
Me : It kind of is but it also kind of plays like a tank.
Them : Then it's a TANK! Me no play TANK!
Me : Well, not really. It's still a DPS, but you just have tools to let you survive.
Them : Then RPR is DPS?!
Me : No, no, no. It's not any of those, PvP doesn't really have roles like that.
Them : Which role is RPR?!
Me : It's like a tanky, debuffer, DPS, that has ranged abilities, designed to jump in and out and build LB to spam.
Them : But RPR supposed to be DPS?!
Me :

Reaper is just reaper. Learn to tank, git gud at survival and how to choose your battles, then you can play it like a DPS.[/QUOTE]

I would argue the class design for RPR is somewhat poor though. They intend this class to play Tank and Dps at the same time and make both sides kind of mediocre so both sides work off each other which leads to a very tedious play style which most other classes don't go through. That's a problem in the long run and having a consistent play style would greatly improve the experience and make RPR less redundant.