DSR was just solo healed

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[…]And in DF it's impossible because DF enforces it. No "Join solo healer parties for full party content" option to tick.

Reminds me that one Lucy Pyre’s comment: ”You’re just here because DF says you have to be.”

[Duskane]

now they either nerf astro MP or they lock raid finder duties to 2 tanks 2 healers and 4 dps and just whistle

[Hezhi]

Yoshi P: play Ultimate if you want engaging content
The content: still glare spamming 50% of the time as solo healer in the hardest ultimate this game has to offer

[Renathras]

I will say as a super casual player that dungeons and EX fights are undertuned for healers, especially when it becomes more efficient to have less or no healers to run that content.

I always find this take...odd. Doing HydEx as a fresh 90, healing was absolutely needed and I had to go through about as many practice parties as I did Titania before clear. Some people just have REAL problems with some mechanics. (It's like P1S - Fourfold makes perfect sense to me, but several days of PFs proved to me that it WASN'T for a lot of the other people I was getting in parties with...)

Part of this comes with comparing prog vs farm. Farming, ZodEx only needs 1 healer. Prog, I was in groups that were dying to things left and right and even some that had trouble clearing the 4 spheres add phase. In the all class/no Job stone run I did, someone even remarked we were clearing the add phase better with no Job stones than many of the early learning parties were. So part of this is that the fights are tuned about right for at level gear, prog, and the first week or three of farming. It's after that, once everyone knows the fights and the mechanics and has better gear and weapons, that they feel undertuned. But go run Coils now (considered very difficult at the time) and they'll likely be far easier, even synced, than they were at level just from the ilevel scaling alone.

<snip>

Honestly, you have a good take that I somewhat agree with. I DISAGREE that people *actually* mean that, though. I've seen threads from people using that to argue - and I mean this literally - that healers should be removed from the game. While MOST people in that thread had the sanity to say no to that proposal, most basically agreed with it that it means no one needs to/should take healers in 4 man runs and other content. That's not an argument of optimization or speed, it's an argument of "If it's not needed in 4 mans, that means there's something wrong with its design"; but based on that, we must conclude that DPS and Tanks in FFXIV are designed poorly as well.

Which...MAY be true. But my issue is that people aren't generally arguing that other than some peripheral arguments that self-sustain may be a BIT too high.

As we agree: That can be said of literally every role in the game at present.

EDIT:

Also, from the Reddit thread:

They brought all the other jobs that can help heal. Paladin had like 16 clemencies, RPR for the aoe heals, DNC for curing waltz, monk for mantra, RDM had 30 vercures, even SMN had 9 physicks.

When you have your other Jobs healing basically as much as an extra healer...

[ForteNightshade]

I always find this take...odd. Doing HydEx as a fresh 90, healing was absolutely needed

Except we have objective proof it wasn't because people literally did it with the base i570 gear everyone had access to right from the conclusion of Endwalker. Both Hydaelyn and Zodiark do such paltry damage throughout the fight you didn't need either healer. Which is the saddest state we have ever seen EX Primals. Of course, most groups weren't going to be skilled enough to get away that but it wasn't uncommon to see solo healer runs of either fight within the first few days. Even that is still terrible from an optics perspective. The optimal comp fresh into endgame content is dropping a healer.

You go on to mention some people are simply bad at mechanics, thus justifying the need for at least one healer if not two. This is precisely the problem healer mains have. Their role is only worthwhile if other people have no idea what they're doing. A good run of P1S even early on means both healers are little more than gimped DPS. In fact, I'll pull my group from day one prog. 46% and 62% of my AST and SGE's casts were on just Fall Malefic and Dosis III, respectively. This isn't omitting cards or their DoT. Therefore, the actual DPS to healing ratio would be even more comically one-sided. On that clear, we had six deaths (one being brick) and twenty-eight damage downs. That's how much of a complete joke P1S is. While yes, he's the first boss and the first tier is notoriously undertuned. This is going overboard. Two healers clearly aren't needed if you can still beat his enrage with this much of a gong show.

Tanks aren't well designed either, by the way. What puts them a step above healers is they actually have something to fall back on: DPS rotations. Even the often mocked Warrior at least has something to do that makes them feel good and engaging to play. Healers simply don't have that. If the group is half-way decent, you're a crappy DPS and nothing else.

[Renathras]

Except we have objective proof it wasn't because people literally did it with the base i570 gear everyone had access to right from the conclusion of Endwalker. Both Hydaelyn and Zodiark do such paltry damage throughout the fight you didn't need either healer. Which is the saddest state we have ever seen EX Primals. Of course, most groups weren't going to be skilled enough to get away that

That's...kind of my point. If most groups aren't able to do it, then it isn't the general situation. If most groups were still failing or just clearing with 2 healers, than suggesting that it's undertuned would be saying none of those people should have been clearing (since tuning it high enough the groups that WERE doing it with single healers likely would mean too much healing for these other groups to handle). And, again, I was talking about progression and early runs, when people HADN'T outright memorized the entire fights so they could do them in their sleep.

You go on to mention some people are simply bad at mechanics, thus justifying the need for at least one healer if not two. This is precisely the problem healer mains have.

No, I'm talking about tuning. There is an issue that as people get better, healers have progressively less to do. But the contra position is that if groups simply aren't able to clear at all early on (when mistakes are being made while learning the fight), then people won't be clearing to get content on farm in the first place.

While yes, he's the first boss and the first tier is notoriously undertuned. This is going overboard. Two healers clearly aren't needed if you can still beat his enrage with this much of a gong show.

I feel I've said this same thing...though I think in another thread.

Tanks aren't well designed either, by the way. What puts them a step above healers is they actually have something to fall back on: DPS rotations. Even the often mocked Warrior at least has something to do that makes them feel good and engaging to play. Healers simply don't have that. If the group is half-way decent, you're a crappy DPS and nothing else.

I honestly don't get this. I don't "feel good and engaging" on a Tank more than on a Healer. I find both feel good and engaging to play. /shrug

[Kabooa]

Reminds me that one Lucy Pyre’s comment: ”You’re just here because DF says you have to be.”

It's the Warrior's world, the rest of us just live in it.

[Deceptus]

FOR ANYONE SAYING THIS MEANS HEALING IS TOO EASY/BROKEN:

This seems to be a REALLY advanced group min/maxing everything to a fine art/flawless science. The OP also mentions that this was their 10th attempt as RNG has to work out just right for it to be successful. [EDIT: Or 10th day of them trying to get it to work, one of the two - point is, it wasn't even possible for them unless the RNG worked out in their favor, which took several attempts to get lucky with.]

The fastest runner in the world can probably outrun several types of animals/vehicles. That doesn't mean this is common or normal.

Do NOT use exceptions that prove the rule as an argument against the rule. It makes no sense. When everyone and their dog is solo healing Ultimates, THEN we can start talking. But how many of you, here, personally have solo healed it?

Any of you?

No?

Then perhaps we shouldn't be drawing grand conclusions from this niche case...

It doesn't matter if I or you can do it, it shouldn't be able to happen period in the absolute hardest difficulty the game offers.

Just like tanks shouldn't be able to solo 8 mans, or healer-less runs shouldn't exist either. This is nothing more than another example of how badly the healing role is disposable and diminished.

[ThorneDynasty]

FOR ANYONE SAYING THIS MEANS HEALING IS TOO EASY/BROKEN:

This seems to be a REALLY advanced group min/maxing everything to a fine art/flawless science. The OP also mentions that this was their 10th attempt as RNG has to work out just right for it to be successful. [EDIT: Or 10th day of them trying to get it to work, one of the two - point is, it wasn't even possible for them unless the RNG worked out in their favor, which took several attempts to get lucky with.]

The fastest runner in the world can probably outrun several types of animals/vehicles. That doesn't mean this is common or normal.

Do NOT use exceptions that prove the rule as an argument against the rule. It makes no sense. When everyone and their dog is solo healing Ultimates, THEN we can start talking. But how many of you, here, personally have solo healed it?

Any of you?

No?

Then perhaps we shouldn't be drawing grand conclusions from this niche case...

The reason there's any difficulty to solo healing is because of arbitrary encounter specific mechanics, it has nothing to do with healing itself being difficult. If you could mark a single DPS as the second "healer" for boss mechanic targeting purposes, it would absolutely be no problem to solo-heal every single duty in the game. The only reason it took this long is because of RNG targeting, not because you need a second healer.

Of course you will refuse to see the distinction or the problem here because you are so determined to die on this stupid hill.

[Lieri]

Healing is too easy in contents where healers have a lot of downtime (not much healing needed) and because the dps is too simple.

However DSR solo heal doesn't necessarily support it further. There will always be exceptional players in any games that manage to do the unthinkable so I don't think we should base the general state of healers on less than 1% of player base. Most of the 99% have stated that they don't like how the 1 button dps is too simple and most contents don't require a lot of healing. So let's stop at that. SE needs to tackle that issue (which is related to normal contents damage output + healer's dps button) and NOT tuning healer in order to make DSR 100% impossible to solo heal because that would mean they base their decisions around providing a challenge for the top healers in the world while at the same time screwing other players. This is what happens with WoW Mythic. They tune Mythic raids for top raiders, leaving the other players not even touching the content because it's stupidly hard.

So yes I don't think this support your cause in wanting healing to be more challenging in general. Go lookup another games with harder difficulties, see how there are always exceptional players that look like they are bots playing without mistakes and beating the contents with ease. One extreme doesn't always support the other.