Contradictions, Double Standards, Counterintuitive Design

[Renathras]

You absolutely are. You came to my post, bring up some completely irrelevant and arbitrary comparison between WHM and WAR, then proceed with multiple walls of texts arguing with people who disagree with you. Thank you for derailing the entire thread.

I'm going to reply one last time (been avoiding this place for days, thought I'd come have one last look...yeah, no)

You posted a thread and presented a topic. Part of your topic was "Imagine if..." and I noted that that's already not far from reality AND I wouldn't at all mind it if they did that.

That was ALL that I was trying to say in my initial point. Then it went into tangents because people can't accept someone that simply has a position that is "a few extra buttons but a largely static thing that's mostly the same in overall execution are not that different". But god forbid someone not actually agree with you folks...

EDIT:

Jesus christ no one is going to be convinced by spamming walls of misinformed BS ad nauseam. I am honestly amazed anyone still bothers to even skim through with enough attention to respond.

People have objectively disproven your nonsense claims about the healer role a hundred times now, including by posting logs of your own runs. At this point you are like a flat earther complaining everyone calling you out is evidence of an "echo chamber".

None of what I sad was "misinformed BS". I actually talked about the number of abilities, their function, and the complexity of the overall kits. And no, no one disproved my VALID AND RATIONAL claims by posting my own logs. Someone took a small segment of my log, ignored anything that disagreed with their claim, and tried some weird shaming that's honestly reportable/banable, I just don't care to pursue someone over such nonsense. At this point, posts like yours are borderline harassment.

Or maybe.....

it's because "current healers have fun engaging gameplay" is an incredibly easy position to argue against, and a lot of people who hang out here have no shortage of experience doing so. We've got game design principles, logs, game footage of bored healers snoozing through their 1111111111111 casts during content. We've heard it all before, and the deeper we look into how healers function in this game, MAN are they aggressively unfun.

"or maybe" nothing. On ANY other forum it's not as bad as here, and you're arguing a SUBJECTIVE POSITION. It's a matter of opinion and many of us find what we have fun AND engaging.

.

Farewell.

[Rolder50]

I love it when people post that healers are fine as they are, then you go look at their achievements on the Lodestone, and see they have never cleared Savage. Seems to happen far too often.

[Sebazy]

I love it when people post that healers are fine as they are, then you go look at their achievements on the Lodestone, and see they have never cleared Savage. Seems to happen far too often.

There's pretty good reason for this IMO.

Healing genuinely is much more enjoyable when you're playing sub optimally, this is reflected throughout the game. New leveling dungeons are fun, learning savage is fun, learning extremes is a blast, even early MSQ battles can be enjoyable. Even Aglaia was fun the first time through, now I'm at the point where I just want to alt f4 if people wipe us to Nald'thal.

It's an illusion that falls apart once you start trying to up your game, learning how little of your kit you can get away with using and then come crashing into the horrible realisation that all you've gotten for your efforts is the joys of pressing a single button some 100+ times.

Healing in this game is genuinely and legitimately a better experience when you are playing to a lower standard and/or don't understand the content. I'm not saying that to bash anyone, it's just how it is. It's like driving with horse blinkers on, you've got less awareness so things feel tighter, faster and more hectic than they actually are.

"or maybe" nothing. On ANY other forum it's not as bad as here, and you're arguing a SUBJECTIVE POSITION. It's a matter of opinion and many of us find what we have fun AND engaging.

What isn't a subjective position is the simple fact that healer engagement has continually regressed from HW onwards.

[Semirhage]

"or maybe" nothing. On ANY other forum it's not as bad as here, and you're arguing a SUBJECTIVE POSITION. It's a matter of opinion and many of us find what we have fun AND engaging.

.

Farewell.

What if I told you...

if they actually designed the healer kits well, nothing's stopping you from spamming Glare and Medica a gazillion times and having "fun" while the rest of us play a game that isn't Cookie Clicker. Just like nothing's stopping Paladin mains from spamming Fast Blade over and over again if they don't want to touch the rest of their rotation.

[Liam_Harper]

What if I told you...

if they actually designed the healer kits well, nothing's stopping you from spamming Glare and Medica a gazillion times and having "fun" while the rest of us play a game that isn't Cookie Clicker. Just like nothing's stopping Paladin mains from spamming Fast Blade over and over again if they don't want to touch the rest of their rotation.

I think the biggest problem is that while Sylphies say they just want to play their way, play for fun and aren't evil elitist tryhards ...they actually do care about their performance in a way. They read these posts and don't like that thought at the back of their mind that they're actually perceived as playing badly. They resent it.

However, Sylphies also don't want to put effort in. So instead of learning their job and becoming a better player, they literally want the entire role to be destroyed and simplified to the point where spamming 1 button and Medica II is seen as optimal. Then in their bubble they can imagine they're perceived as a good player without changing their zero effort playstyle.

The Devs cater to this and protect it. Simplification is done so the bad player can feel like a good one, without being asked to play their job well. Even the anti-parser policy plays into this, shielding the bad player from potential proof that they're even playing the simple version badly and making it so other party members have nothing to gauge them on other than "is my health bar full?".

Healer is basically the role SE has assigned to bad players who can't even handle dps, as an easy mode option to carry them through content while making them feel like a piece of the team. Which is why when we come along with logic, threatening to burst that imaginary bubble and asking for change, they aggressively defend that "simple" playstyle at all costs and will go through every hoop possible to cling to it. They don't want to just be the Glare and Medica II spammer in the corner while we get new buttons and master them. They'd rather everyone was forced to be a Glare and Medica II spammer too and dragged down to their level to keep it equal. It's not healthy and it's incredibly poor design to cater to it.

[ThorneDynasty]

It's even more dumb than that, since every time there is a self-identifying sylphie and people are actually able to pull up their logs, they are in fact DPSing 80% of the time just like everyone else. So in practice they are the exact same green DPS elitists they rail against. They just don't want the green DPSing to be any kind of fun out of some weird hang up on a "healers should heal" principle, even though they themselves are an example of why it has never been true. Or spamming that 1 button 30 seconds straight doing nothing else is apparently something they've just convinced themselves is fun.

[SenzorialBoundries]

It's even more dumb than that, since every time there is a self-identifying sylphie and people are actually able to pull up their logs, they are in fact DPSing 80% of the time just like everyone else. So in practice they are the exact same green DPS elitists they rail against. They just don't want the green DPSing to be any kind of fun out of some weird hang up on a "healers should heal" principle, even though they themselves are an example of why it has never been true. Or spamming that 1 button 30 seconds straight doing nothing else is apparently something they've just convinced themselves is fun.

"Healers should heal" has been true to some extent in ARR coils and extremes until they started to add the ridiculous echo buff stripping any semblence of difficulty.

[Teno]

"Healers should heal" has been true to some extent in ARR coils and extremes until they started to add the ridiculous echo buff stripping any semblence of difficulty.

Even in ARR and coils healers were first and foremost green dps (even more true for scholar). It's just that the lack of oGCDs and mitigation tools meant that you sometimes cast GCDs, especially when new on a fight.

[Sebazy]

Even in ARR and coils healers were first and foremost green dps (even more true for scholar). It's just that the lack of oGCDs and mitigation tools meant that you sometimes cast GCDs, especially when new on a fight.

In fairness, that kind of depends on the content.

Dungeons? Absolutely, in 2.0 I actually used to make double WHM parties for the fastest WP grind before we figured out the whole locking mobs out of the boss area with the barrier thing.

Savage and Trials? Not so much, not because we didn't have opportunities to DPS, high tier healers would generally be maintaining dots where possible, but because resources were much scarcer than they are now, and that includes GCDs themselves. Tanks could potentially get wiped out in the span of a couple of GCDs with bad crit luck, MP evaporated if you started spamming much of anything and falling behind was risky because we just didn't have the same kind of ability to catch back up like we do now.

You used to see a lot of standing around canceling casts and hard MP conservation in harder content.

[IllyaPrisma]

I'm going to reply one last time (been avoiding this place for days, thought I'd come have one last look...yeah, no)

You posted a thread and presented a topic. Part of your topic was "Imagine if..." and I noted that that's already not far from reality AND I wouldn't at all mind it if they did that.

"Not far from reality". You have not, IN THE SLIGHTEST made a convincing argument that Warrior is close to White Mage in terms of damage rotation. Damage rotation for healers (or lack there of) is what the initial post was about, highlighting the double standard issue currently ruining the healer role. You come in and say "wElL wArRiOr dOesN'T hAvE mUcH oF A dAmaGe rOtaTioN eItHeR aNd wArRior iS nOt fAr oFf fRoM wHiTe mAge".

1. Off topic.
2. People are going to disagree with your statement because it is untrue. Warrior has a decent damage rotation, and it is much better off than any of the Healers.
3. The comparison you are making is meaningless, choosing to compare a healing kit vs damage rotation.
4. How about you compare the complexity of White Mage's damage rotation vs Warrior's damage rotation?