Contradictions, Double Standards, Counterintuitive Design

[Renathras]

Did you guys see people already got a 100% parse party with 5 dps and 1 healer in DSU? Every player in the party got a 100% parse including the healer….

That's pretty insane and indicative of an exceptional team pushing the limits of what's possible.

They also said they were at it for 10 days (?!) and had to get the RNG of the mechanics to line up JUST right for it to even be possible. Everyone, of course, ignores all that and now believes DSU can be solo healed by anyone and everyone. Because...of course they do.

Ah but wherein lies the problem...

I mean, I absolutely COULD HAVE used those buttons. I've been trying to push myself to NOT use them. A Medica 2 instead of a Solace might not have gone amiss in part of the run, but I used what I had and tried to have faith in my co-healer to take care of the rest. It more or less worked.

There's no multi-hit stack mechanic for Plenery/Cure 3, and I used Lilybell for Fourfold (and had the Red 3, so couldn't be centered for AOE healing anyway). I thought I did fat finger Plenery somewhere. Heh. And 2 Benisons? Did I really? That kinda makes me happy since I tend to still have the old school mentality of "clutch heals are for emergencies only" that I've been trying to break myself out of.

Also, I don't tend to analyze runs much, so not sure if you're making a dig at me with "that GCD uptime..." or not. Please DO elaborate?

Most people had enough gear and knew the fight well enough. I still frequently used my GCD Lily heals and my oGCD abilities because I'm genuinely trying to get better and use more of my kit. This is, however, the first time in my FFXIV experience I've had someone...attack?...me for doing so. So I guess there's a first time for everything.

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"simply unacceptable"?

I was able to clear the content.

"It's poorly designed"?

Even your list shows I used quite a few of my various healing abilities. The Job is designed to reward good play while having strong backup spamable GCD heals (Medica, Cure 3) in case of emergencies. This fight didn't have too many emergencies.

Besides, you're not arguing WHM is poorly designed here. You're arguing P1S is poorly designed. At least get that right, eh?

EDIT:

You are argueing a purely theoretical difficulty...

No, I'm looking at kits, interactions, and how they work in a mechanical sense.

I've already submitted for the sake of argument that CONTENT is too easy. I've said for months now we have too many oGCDs, they're too powerful, and fights are too scripted. I got downvoted to the 13th on Reddit for daring to suggest we need more complex healing requirements/more intense damage in high level end-game content. How DARE I suggest such a thing.

...and have been berated for it here, too.

To be attacked for saying healing is too easy by people saying healing is too easy is the height of absurdity. Noting the fact that the healing kits are complex is also not a lie. As I said in the very post I believe you are responding to:

My argument is that they're comparably complex, NOT that you need nor use that complexity. That's a different argument entirely.

WHM and WAR are comparably complex.

You don't need to USE WHM's complexity in currently designed content.

That doesn't mean the Job (since all healers are this way) is badly designed. It means the content is not being well designed.

And let's face it, if P1S was cleared with ALL TANKS - that means 8 TANKS without a single DPS Job were able to clear the DPS CHECK enrage... - it means that the proper take here is that P1S (and the other end-game content) may be undertuned. If you can clear DPS check enrages without a single DPS in the party, that says something, doesn't it? CERTAINLY if being able to clear without a healer says something, being able to clear without a damage dealer must say something too, right?

[Sebazy]

Everyone, of course, ignores all that and now believes DSU can be solo healed by anyone and everyone. Because...of course they do.

See, it's lines like this that make people really want to disagree with you.

Believe it or not, not everything has to be exactly 0 or 100% (except this group's percentile in this case ofc! )

That doesn't mean the Job (since all healers are this way) is badly designed. It means the content is not being well designed.

But they are though?

Pick any one Resto Druid ability and try to clear dungeons and casual raids with it. It just wouldn't work.

Meanwhile in FFXIV, you could easily clear Normal Modes, 24 mans and arguably even Extremes with just medica II. Dungeons would ironically be a little tougher needing the tank to cooperate with cooldowns on trash pulls but that's certainly not that steep a challenge either.

So what's the difference here? It's the nuance within the healer's toolkits IMHO. WoW had a greater emphasis on combinations of abilities adding up to make them greater than the sum of their parts. Of course not every healing class was perfect in this aspect, but it's plain to see that the regular favourites tended to have the most emphasis on this. Other MMOs that are regularly touted as having good healers also similar in this regard, SWTOR and Warhammer Online being particular favourites of mine. The healing kits were tightly designed with a ton of interaction between various abilities and resources.

FFXIV has very little of that and what interactions it does have are merely 'press this button for more healing for x seconds' with the only complexity really being remembering what's a spell vs an ability.

Compared to WoW, Swtor or Wol, FFXIV's healers are badly designed, no ifs no buts.

[Renathras]

See, it's lines like this that make people really want to disagree with you.

1) No, it isn't - these folks already disagree with me only on the basis I think healing is enjoyable right now.

2) Further, that's the actual argument people are making in this thread - that one group of HIGHLY SKILLED PLAYERS WITH PERFECT RNG were able to do this means that healing IN THE ENTIRE GAME, INCLUDING ULTIMATE is broken. The logical interpretation is that they think that others can do this, and that it's approachable enough that more or less anyone can do it, because if that was not the case, then the argument collapses. You HAVE to think that this is something relatively anyone can do, otherwise one group of hyper-elite players doing it wouldn't be a problem.

EDIT:

Pick any one Resto Druid ability and try to clear dungeons and casual raids with it. It just wouldn't work.

OBJECTION: Straw man fallacy.

This solo Ultimate clearing AST did not use only one button.

This is an apples to porcupines comparison, but I'll indulge anyway.

Further, pick any level 90 content in the game right now and have a Healer heal it successfully pressing only one button and no others. THAT INCLUDES NO OGCDS, since those are buttons. Unless your tank VASTLY outgears content (or is a WAR/PLD, since they can solo everything just about anyway), you will have to press another button at some point. The only exception to this MIGHT be SCH because Eos's healing, but there are some wall to wall pulls in 4 mans that will splatter Tanks who aren't using Bloodwhetting.

So if we allow hypothetical Druid to transition to WoW and use just one ability? Well, pretty sure they could clear Aglaia with just Rejuvenation...so that already defeats your argument, doesn't it? But if you mean in WoW: This goes back to my argument that the problem in FFXIV is too little damage, not healer kits not being designed well. So see the above argument on "well designed".

So what's the difference here? It's the nuance within the healer's toolkits IMHO.

No, it's that WoW encounters actually do threatening damage. Indeed, many WoW healer kits DON'T have nuance, or not any significantly greater nuance than FFXIV's healers HEALING kits already have. WoW also has a greater emphasis on ability combinations because it doesn't have an oGCD weaving system. Something to keep in mind when comparing and contrasting the two.

But again: It's the encounters, not the kit designs, that are the problem. You're making my arguments for me...yet not seeing it.

Compared to WoW, Swtor or Wol, FFXIV's healers are badly designed, no ifs no buts.

Disagree. Put WHM into WoW right now. Like basically transplant its entire kit. It would fit right in alongside Druid as a raid/party healer. Your argument is that FFXIV's ENCOUNTERS are badly designed, not the healing kits, as the healing kits transferred to any other MMO (where damage is actually more serious) would fit in just fine. Indeed, Freecure might actually be useful in WoW with WoW's different MP regen mechanics.

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But, I'm probably going to leave this thread and this forum soon. It's a hell of an echo chamber.

I know you guys rag on Reddit, but look at that Reddit thread. People are arguing all the points, and people on both sides are getting upvotes and conversation.

Here, I'm the only person in this thread arguing this position, and anyone ragging on me is getting tons of likes (relative to this thread's activity level) while not one of my posts, not even my neutral tone first one that is making a reasonable statement - has a single like.

This place is more of an echo chamber than r/ffxiv. Which...honestly? Is kind of impressive...

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I will note that, of the people here, you've been among the most reasonable. Pity... Farewell.

Now, if we aren't going to be using our full healing kit, then yes, healers are badly designed for the content in the game and need to be redesigned to match.

You say we disagree, but this is my argument here, too. Yet you get 16 likes for saying the same thing.

Note that this is a glass half full/empty argument. We agree that the current encounter design and healing kits do not mesh. My argument is that means the encounters are badly designed, yours is that healers is..while noting that healers AREN'T "truly horribly" designed...which is...my argument.

So I'm not sure we disagree, since we're saying the same thing. It's more we disagree on the solution - to me, the encounters need to be changed going forward, to you, the healers' do. I presume from your perspective it's their DPS kits that need to be changed...which completely ignores the problem.

Hell, I've even argued that healer oGCDs are too powerful and need to be nerfed to actually force GCD healing and that would also address the problem you note of healers being able to solo heal at the same time!

Similar arguments were used when TEA was solo healed as well. "Oh it was an AST so its fine" SCH and WHM then clear it as well and radio silence after that.
"RNG needs to line up just right for it to be possible" Well RNG lined up and these people cleared it so what's the actual argument being made?

That being able to solo heal something only if you have maximum skilled and dedicated people throwing themselves at it over and over again and still it's a coin flip meaning RNG could make it where they NEVER succeed.

That's the actual argument being made.

This seems contradictory because I fail to see how too many powerful oGCD is NOT a job design problem.

Because it's not?

Suppose you are eating more calories than you are working out to burn. So you're getting fat. And you say "This is a calorie problem" and I say "No, it's a you not working out enough problem". Both answers are actually correct, as addressing either over calorie intake OR low calorie burn (or both) would lead to a solution.

Making the content actually warrant the oversaturated amount of oGCDs healers get wouldn't resolve the issue because everything that came before that content would be unaffected

And? This has been the case since 3.0 added a new level cap, new gear, new abilities, and new Jobs. This has never been a problem before. The content has been "woefully underdeveloped" for, what, 8 years now?

If you don't need to use WHM's "supposed" complexity for current content, then what's the problem of adding to that complexity?

Because the complexity is already there? We just need encounters that flex that.

But they are though?

If we define "well designed" as "needs 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps, and all of them need to be playing well", then a solo healed Ultimate and all Tank clears of P1S would, indeed, imply that the encounters are poorly designed, yes. How else would you interpret that?

[Sebazy]

1) No, it isn't - these folks already disagree with me only on the basis I think healing is enjoyable right now.

Yes, it, is.

You then proceed to make exactly the same kind of BS exaggeration claim again. You're effectively having the forum equivalent of a tantrum like a small child, it looks sad and it makes it really hard to actually try and focus in on the actual decent and relevant points you're making elsewhere in your posts.

2) Further, that's the actual argument people are making in this thread - that one group of HIGHLY SKILLED PLAYERS WITH PERFECT RNG were able to do this means that healing IN THE ENTIRE GAME, INCLUDING ULTIMATE is broken.

Please just stop with this, you're doing yourself a disservice and again, It's just making people want to argue with you on principle. I don't know how I can make this any clearer. This is a complete BS exaggeration as pretty much everyone in this thread arguing with you has openly stated that there are plenty of occasions in the game where healing is actually good fun, leveling dungeons being the immediate and obvious answer.

Enough with the tantrum posting already.

OBJECTION: Straw man fallacy.

This solo Ultimate clearing AST did not use only one button.

......what?

Since when is DSR a dungeon or casual raid?

With that I'm done, I honestly couldn't care less about how relevant, accurate or interesting the rest of your post is because I can't be bothered if you're just going to come out with stupid stuff like this.

Have fun getting flamed sir.

[Renathras]

Yes, it, is.

NO.

It's not.

Because I was getting these same types of replies before.

You then proceed to make exactly the same kind of BS exaggeration claim again. You're effectively having the forum equivalent of a tantrum like a small child, it looks sad and it makes it really hard to actually try and focus in on the actual decent and relevant points you're making elsewhere in your posts.

People already weren't focusing on actual relevant points I was making. See above statement.

Also: ...you know what?
Never mind.

I'm done.

Have a good day and farewell.

EDIT:

Have fun getting flamed sir.

And you say I'm throwing a forum tantrum.

Yeah, I...take it back.

Anyway, farewell.

[IllyaPrisma]

And you say I'm throwing a forum tantrum.

You absolutely are. You came to my post, bring up some completely irrelevant and arbitrary comparison between WHM and WAR, then proceed with multiple walls of texts arguing with people who disagree with you. Thank you for derailing the entire thread.

[Renathras]

You absolutely are. You came to my post, bring up some completely irrelevant and arbitrary comparison between WHM and WAR, then proceed with multiple walls of texts arguing with people who disagree with you. Thank you for derailing the entire thread.

I'm going to reply one last time (been avoiding this place for days, thought I'd come have one last look...yeah, no)

You posted a thread and presented a topic. Part of your topic was "Imagine if..." and I noted that that's already not far from reality AND I wouldn't at all mind it if they did that.

That was ALL that I was trying to say in my initial point. Then it went into tangents because people can't accept someone that simply has a position that is "a few extra buttons but a largely static thing that's mostly the same in overall execution are not that different". But god forbid someone not actually agree with you folks...

EDIT:

Jesus christ no one is going to be convinced by spamming walls of misinformed BS ad nauseam. I am honestly amazed anyone still bothers to even skim through with enough attention to respond.

People have objectively disproven your nonsense claims about the healer role a hundred times now, including by posting logs of your own runs. At this point you are like a flat earther complaining everyone calling you out is evidence of an "echo chamber".

None of what I sad was "misinformed BS". I actually talked about the number of abilities, their function, and the complexity of the overall kits. And no, no one disproved my VALID AND RATIONAL claims by posting my own logs. Someone took a small segment of my log, ignored anything that disagreed with their claim, and tried some weird shaming that's honestly reportable/banable, I just don't care to pursue someone over such nonsense. At this point, posts like yours are borderline harassment.

Or maybe.....

it's because "current healers have fun engaging gameplay" is an incredibly easy position to argue against, and a lot of people who hang out here have no shortage of experience doing so. We've got game design principles, logs, game footage of bored healers snoozing through their 1111111111111 casts during content. We've heard it all before, and the deeper we look into how healers function in this game, MAN are they aggressively unfun.

"or maybe" nothing. On ANY other forum it's not as bad as here, and you're arguing a SUBJECTIVE POSITION. It's a matter of opinion and many of us find what we have fun AND engaging.

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Farewell.

[Semirhage]

echo chamber

Or maybe.....

it's because "current healers have fun engaging gameplay" is an incredibly easy position to argue against, and a lot of people who hang out here have no shortage of experience doing so. We've got game design principles, logs, game footage of bored healers snoozing through their 1111111111111 casts during content. We've heard it all before, and the deeper we look into how healers function in this game, MAN are they aggressively unfun.

[ASkellington]

You say we disagree, but this is my argument here, too. Yet you get 16 likes for saying the same thing.

Note that this is a glass half full/empty argument. We agree that the current encounter design and healing kits do not mesh. My argument is that means the encounters are badly designed, yours is that healers is..while noting that healers AREN'T "truly horribly" designed...which is...my argument.

So I'm not sure we disagree, since we're saying the same thing. It's more we disagree on the solution - to me, the encounters need to be changed going forward, to you, the healers' do. I presume from your perspective it's their DPS kits that need to be changed...which completely ignores the problem.

Hell, I've even argued that healer oGCDs are too powerful and need to be nerfed to actually force GCD healing and that would also address the problem you note of healers being able to solo heal at the same time!

Because for the final time SE is not going to change encounter design. If your solution is to change encounter design it is 100% not going to happen because they would need to overhaul the ENTIRE GAME from ARR to now.

This is why the healing CLASSES need to change.

Would we rather SE change the encounters from the ground up? Yes. Realistically will that happen? No.
So, if encounter design is not going to change what is YOUR solution to fixing the healing classes?

[ASkellington]

You don't need to USE WHM's complexity in currently designed content.

That doesn't mean the Job (since all healers are this way) is badly designed. It means the content is not being well designed.

And here's where we disagree. You aren't entirely wrong in that WHM or any healer is truly horribly designed but the thing is:

SE has already gone on record saying they aren't increasing outgoing damage for healers to heal. Not just in dungeon content, but in all content as evident by we have yet to see consistent damage that requires two healers at their best.

Now, if we aren't going to be using our full healing kit, then yes, healers are badly designed for the content in the game and need to be redesigned to match. <---This is what we mean by healers are badly designed.