GNB Adjustments

[Ixon]

You don't need macros. You should have target enemy and target ally keybound. F1, 5, F2. Target enemy, draw on them, switch back to who you were attacking earlier (there's probably a target last target option you can bind, too.) It can be done in less than a second. Same is true for allies. You are being very inefficient with keybind space if you're actually creating targeting macros instead of just using proper keybinds.

GNB only does damage and healing, but it does **too much** healing and shielding with +20%. It's completely overpowered and needs to be nerfed, *especially* if we're changing things such that the GNB can always have access to their pick of stance (which *needs* to happen because the class is unnecessarily clunky without it.) Aurora is an almost 10k instant heal on demand, plus a powerful regen. At least Aspected Benefic requires them to be under half and has a much lower regen. 20% bonus to shielding makes GNB *by far* the tankiest tank, while still doing quite a lot more DPS than PLD does.

That's not acceptable. That's broken, and it needs to be reverted. Keep the 20% damage boost, that's fine. But the healing boost has got to go.

Having to press 3 keys mid combat for a single desired effect, not to mention swapping focus from your main target at the time to target another just for this, is just not optimal. DnJ is an oGCD. With a Macro I can swap to who I want, when I want, even in the middle of a Gnashing Combo with minimal fear of clipping my GCD so I can maintain uptime and maintain damage on the enemy. I guarantee I can do faster with a macro than if I was doing it manually. It's why people use macros in the first place, across almost every job, with almost every player. It's faster and more accurate in specific situations.

Idk if you have looked at the leaderboards, or looked at the tournaments that have been happening, but there aren't many GNB's. Like, I am one of about two-ish on the Aether leaderboard. Like I said, GNB is the equivalent of DRG or SGE but for Tanks. No hard CC, but a lot of damage. That's the balance. You're "super powerful Aurora" comes at the cost of doing much less damage than either DPS or Tank stance, while having less sustain than Tank stance. Besides, you don't really swap to healer stance for Aurora, you swap to heal stance for the AoE heals on the oGCD that can be very good in very specific situations.

The healing boost is so minimal, I am curious what you have ever seen as "overpowered", because in over 1k games on GNB, I don't agree. The ONLY instances where the healer stance is good to have in in heavy melee comps, usually on Lava Map, or in Overtime. Situations where you can hit the most people with the AoE healing that is the main reason why you would go into healer stance in the first place. And even then, your damage and personal sustain are gutted, hence why it is balanced.

Not to mention GNB is far from being the best tank at the moment. PLD and WAR are by far more consistent in what they do. Their utility and CC carry harder in more situations which is why they are the better pick most of the time. IF they made GNB able to choose stances as they please, while keeping what they have now, at most they might actually be on the same level as PLD and WAR are right now. Your damage wouldn't change, other than the availability to swap to DPS stance more frequently, the heal stance would still be very situational and a 10k heal doesn't do much against a 16k Flare, 20k Drill, 22k Wyrmwind Thrust. At most, it would just make GNB more CONSISTENT, which is it's main issue at the moment.

[TimotheusReed]

The healing boost is so minimal, I am curious what you have ever seen as "overpowered", because in over 1k games on GNB, I don't agree. The ONLY instances where the healer stance is good to have in in heavy melee comps, usually on Lava Map, or in Overtime. Situations where you can hit the most people with the AoE healing that is the main reason why you would go into healer stance in the first place. And even then, your damage and personal sustain are gutted, hence why it is balanced.

Not to mention GNB is far from being the best tank at the moment. PLD and WAR are by far more consistent in what they do. Their utility and CC carry harder in more situations which is why they are the better pick most of the time. IF they made GNB able to choose stances as they please, while keeping what they have now, at most they might actually be on the same level as PLD and WAR are right now. Your damage wouldn't change, other than the availability to swap to DPS stance more frequently, the heal stance would still be very situational and a 10k heal doesn't do much against a 16k Flare, 20k Drill, 22k Wyrmwind Thrust. At most, it would just make GNB more CONSISTENT, which is it's main issue at the moment.

Ixon. Don't bother. I have seen your GNB suggestions since the beginning of Crystalline Conflict. I always respected your opinion about GNB and I can testify that you know what you are talking about. I learned to play GNB well but it still took a lot of time and I still propably perform similar to someone who just picked up one of the OP classes. And I still feel like I need to put more effort and time into playing GNB than anyone else.

I am pretty much one of the only GNB who is queuing in my data centre. I don't think Gserpent knows what he is talking about. And I am not really sure if he might just be trolling us.
Now after the No Mercy change i can finally hold my ground somewhat. And most of my playstyle is just "running away, attack, running away, attack" while all other tanks can stay on the crystal endlessly sometimes, because they are more durable than me.

Also as someone who plays on controller targetting especially "allies" isn't that easy. The only change i really want for GNB to feel "perfect" would be CC immunity on my LB. Then I got everything I need.

[Ixon]

Ixon. Don't bother. I have seen your GNB suggestions since the beginning of Crystalline Conflict. I always respected your opinion about GNB and I can testify that you know what you are talking about. I learned to play GNB well but it still took a lot of time and I still propably perform similar to someone who just picked up one of the OP classes. And I still feel like I need to put more effort and time into playing GNB than anyone else.

I am pretty much one of the only GNB who is queuing in my data centre. I don't think Gserpent knows what he is talking about. And I am not really sure if he might just be trolling us.
Now after the No Mercy change i can finally hold my ground somewhat. And most of my playstyle is just "running away, attack, running away, attack" while all other tanks can stay on the crystal endlessly sometimes, because they are more durable than me.

Also as someone who plays on controller targetting especially "allies" isn't that easy. The only change i really want for GNB to feel "perfect" would be CC immunity on my LB. Then I got everything I need.

Thanks. I still think GNB is fine, it just lacks consistency. Cover is almost always good, same with TBN, same with a stun. The issue is while something like Nebula in Tank stance is good, it's only good when you are getting attacked. Healing stance is good, but only if your team can benefit from it. DPS stance is good, but only if you are being ignored. And a 30sec cooldown that is dependent on enemy(or potentially ally) team comps strips that flexibility away. Not to mention current DnJ gives a Powder Barrel for a Burst Strike, which is a damage increase if it replaces any part of your 1-2-3 combo. So you are either forced to use it on cooldown for the DPS, but lose out on what little flexibility you have. Or hold it to be flexible if able, but lose out on free damage. Hence why I would rather they just do away with it entirely and do something similar to the RDM black/white shift as I mentioned.

The other issue with them simply allowing to target self and allies is at minimum it would only allows you to go tank stance whenever you want. The other two stances would still be enemy and ally comp dependent, so you would still lose out on total flexibility just because you didn't get a Healer or DPS(in the rare occasion) in your match. I don't know if SE is willing to go that far to make GNB functional, or if they will just keep applying band aids to current DnJ.

[Gserpent]

Having to press 3 keys mid combat for a single desired effect, not to mention swapping focus from your main target at the time to target another just for this, is just not optimal. DnJ is an oGCD. With a Macro I can swap to who I want, when I want, even in the middle of a Gnashing Combo with minimal fear of clipping my GCD so I can maintain uptime and maintain damage on the enemy. I guarantee I can do faster with a macro than if I was doing it manually. It's why people use macros in the first place, across almost every job, with almost every player. It's faster and more accurate in specific situations.

It shouldn't take you more than a fraction of a second to make three inputs like that. If macros work for you, more power to you. But macros can't be buffered, while direct inputs can... which means I'm never going to use a macro when doing it manually works just as well.

The leaderboards don't matter. I don't know if you've actually played many games with the top 100's, but almost all of them aren't anything special. I've played with about 2/3 of the top 100 on Crystal (those that are on there consistently/maintain it) and I can't say any of them have really blown me away. None of them are bad. But people act like these people should have shit that don't stink and they're just... normal, average players.

I don't know what to tell you if you think a 10k heal with 3600 regen isn't top tier healing. Are you one of those people that thinks Aspected Benefic isn't broken halfway to hell, then? I mean, it's "only" 10k instant healing. Recuperate is "only" 15k instant healing... or 18k if you're a GNB. At what point does the instant healing stop being "weak" and start being recognized as "good"? It seems pretty arbitrary to me.

[Ixon]

It shouldn't take you more than a fraction of a second to make three inputs like that. If macros work for you, more power to you. But macros can't be buffered, while direct inputs can... which means I'm never going to use a macro when doing it manually works just as well.

The leaderboards don't matter. I don't know if you've actually played many games with the top 100's, but almost all of them aren't anything special. I've played with about 2/3 of the top 100 on Crystal (those that are on there consistently/maintain it) and I can't say any of them have really blown me away. None of them are bad. But people act like these people should have shit that don't stink and they're just... normal, average players.

I don't know what to tell you if you think a 10k heal with 3600 regen isn't top tier healing. Are you one of those people that thinks Aspected Benefic isn't broken halfway to hell, then? I mean, it's "only" 10k instant healing. Recuperate is "only" 15k instant healing... or 18k if you're a GNB. At what point does the instant healing stop being "weak" and start being recognized as "good"? It seems pretty arbitrary to me.

Still unsure if this is a troll or not, but I got time to kill so I'll bite.

There is a large list of reason why macros are better than manual input in certain situations. To the point where pretty much every single player uses them. If you don't use them, great, but the majority of PVPer's do, and have done so, since the Feast. So any additional change such as adding the ability to target teammates with DnJ that would only result in more macro's required for minimal gain is sub-optimal. Especially when there are work arounds like I have mentioned that will accomplish the same effect, but with much better results.

Healer stance on GNB is the worst stance, by far. Anyone who has spent any decent amount of time on GNB will tell you that. The 'less than a Recuperates' worth of single target healing plus the oGCD AoE healing that will miss most of your teammates half the time(especially since we are in a very ranged heavy meta) on top of having the worst damage output out of the three stances makes it the last choice you should pick outside of some very, very, specific circumstances. Aurora was nice back in Feast because you always had it. You were never sacrificing anything else for the ability to use it, and albeit in a vacuum on paper it's nice now. However, with the current state of GNB, you will have to go healer stance to gain access to it. And there is not enough reason to swap to healer stance JUST for Aurora.

Now let's say the devs answer my prayers and make DnJ similar to RDM black/white shift. Where at the press of a single button you can rotate between tank, healer, and DPS stance freely whenever you want. Would Aurora be "overpowered" then? I still say no. To me this would just increase the skill ceiling in a way that is both beneficial to the players enjoyment of the job, as well as said jobs functionality. It would make your choices every 20sec more meaningful, as when Junctioned Cast comes off cooldown, you would be able to decide in that moment which of the three abilities would be the best choice in a given situation between Nebula, Aurora, and Blasting Zone. If a player is able to be in tank stance, realize a teammate is in trouble, and in that instant swap to healer stance to give a life saving Aurora knowing full well that they will lose access to Nebula and Blasting Zone for 20sec, then swap back to tank stance so they don't die, all while maintaining uptime on an enemy, that doesn't seem overpowered to me. That just seems like fair and balanced job design with a high skill ceiling.

[Gserpent]

If a player is able to be in tank stance, realize a teammate is in trouble, and in that instant swap to healer stance to give a life saving Aurora knowing full well that they will lose access to Nebula and Blasting Zone for 20sec, then swap back to tank stance so they don't die, all while maintaining uptime on an enemy, that doesn't seem overpowered to me. That just seems like fair and balanced job design with a high skill ceiling.

I mean, like I said: if you like macros, that's fine. But you're complaining about needing extra keybinds when I'm literally giving you the solution to that problem. Barring physical disabilities or injuries or something, it really shouldn't be problematic to quickly execute a 3-input combo in well under a second if you've customized keybinds to where they're comfortable for your hands to access. Being able to execute things like that is pretty common to most games. I will absolutely grant you the problems it would cause console players, though.

As to the quoted bit? Yeah, sure... *if* they nerfed the benefits of being in each stance. Granted DPS stance isn't a huge deal (you're still basically a worse MNK), but GNB is far and away the tankiest tank in tank stance and if you think healer stance sucks... I don't know what to tell you? Maybe things are different on Aether, but there is no "ranged meta" on Crystal - if anything, with how broken MNK's capacity to click-delete casters is, you're likely to see as many melee as you do ranged, and it's quite common to see teams with 2-3 healers or tanks. Healer stance is *extremely* strong for any kind of sustain-focused lineup, which are quite common on Crystal. If you haven't seen it for yourself, then I'm not surprised you'd find healer to be lacking. It's 11k healing in a *15yd* AOE, and an extra 3600 healing whenever you choose to pop Hypervelocity, on a 15 second cycle. That's an *enormous* amount of team healing - it's more healing than WHM's Cure 3 proc every 20 sec (and that's including the Temperance healing bonus, mind you.)

If they make it so that GNB can access whatever abilities on demand, then they would necessarily have to re-evaluate the potency of those effects because they are currently balanced around you *not* having on-demand access to all of them.

[Ixon]

I mean, like I said: if you like macros, that's fine. But you're complaining about needing extra keybinds when I'm literally giving you the solution to that problem. Barring physical disabilities or injuries or something, it really shouldn't be problematic to quickly execute a 3-input combo in well under a second if you've customized keybinds to where they're comfortable for your hands to access. Being able to execute things like that is pretty common to most games. I will absolutely grant you the problems it would cause console players, though.

As to the quoted bit? Yeah, sure... *if* they nerfed the benefits of being in each stance. Granted DPS stance isn't a huge deal (you're still basically a worse MNK), but GNB is far and away the tankiest tank in tank stance and if you think healer stance sucks... I don't know what to tell you? Maybe things are different on Aether, but there is no "ranged meta" on Crystal - if anything, with how broken MNK's capacity to click-delete casters is, you're likely to see as many melee as you do ranged, and it's quite common to see teams with 2-3 healers or tanks. Healer stance is *extremely* strong for any kind of sustain-focused lineup, which are quite common on Crystal. If you haven't seen it for yourself, then I'm not surprised you'd find healer to be lacking. It's 11k healing in a *15yd* AOE, and an extra 3600 healing whenever you choose to pop Hypervelocity, on a 15 second cycle. That's an *enormous* amount of team healing - it's more healing than WHM's Cure 3 proc every 20 sec (and that's including the Temperance healing bonus, mind you.)

If they make it so that GNB can access whatever abilities on demand, then they would necessarily have to re-evaluate the potency of those effects because they are currently balanced around you *not* having on-demand access to all of them.

You are writing under situations that aren't guaranteed. Can GNB be a tanky tank? Sure, IF there is a Tank on the enemy team and IF you are able to execute your oGCD's for the shields, whilst PLD get's their mitigation and shield every time, all the time. Can GNB healing be good? Sure, IF there is an enemy healer, and IF you even have any melees on your team, and IF you can hit enough people with your oGCD's and IF you don't get focused down because you have less sustain in Healer stance than tank stance and IF your team can do enough damage to carry your lack there of. And if you are going healer stance just to support 1 MNK on your team, I think that's a bit of a throw. MNK's are pretty survivable as is, and a trickle of healing here and there whilst losing a large amount of damage and sustain is not worth. What is a 3600 oGCD to a 12k Flare? A drop in the the bucket, which is why it's an AoE heal, because while it's minimal on a single target, the more people you hit, the better.

And cool, you can theoretically heal more than a single Cure 3 proc every 20 sec while in GNB healer stance. So what? While a GNB in healer stance does a tiny bit more healing, the WHM is providing Protect with Seraph Strike, Miracle of Nature, Aqua veil, and Cure 2. See the issue? GNB Tank stance can ONLY stand up to another tank due to the sheer damage GNB can provide while being relatively tanky in place of the other tanks utility. GNB DPS stance can ONLY stand up to another DPS due to it's damage in place of it's utility and sustain. GNB Healer stance does not provide enough damage or healing to adequately stand up to the other healers. The very few situations where you can get the most benefit of being in healer stance, why not just go DPS stance and kill faster?

Not to mention all this is moot because GNB isn't even the best tank at the moment. At the very least, a change would bring it to the SAME LEVEL as PLD or WAR, where currently it sits below them. No one is putting GNB at S tier. Hell, most don't even put it at A tier. You say the board is whatever, but it does tell a story when you look at it. The most queued tank that you see climb the board at the moment is PLD, and I bet it's the same for most if not all the active boards in all the data centers. Here is what I can assure you, I have almost won more ranked games on GNB than you have total played ranked games. I have probably tried every stance in every comp in every situation. Does Healer stance have a place? Yes, but most of the time it does not. The healing that it can do(which can be easily out healed by most of the healers) does not make up for it's lack of CC, utility, and damage at this point in time, nor would that change even if they fixed DnJ jank.