Do we really need two healers per alliance in 24 mans?

[pinkbubblegum]

All of those things DPS mains get to do while not spending 90% of their time pressing 1111111111111111111.

Honestly, I have no real strong opinions about the state of healer DPS skills. I'm even a fan that they made all healers able to weave on almost all dps spells now. I just play whatever the game gives me... If they add combos in the future, I'll play that too. Whatever honestly.

Cure 3, Medica, Afflatus Rapture, Medica 2, Lilybell. WHY TF DO I NEED 5 AOE HEALS? 6 if you want to count Assize.
Why do I need PI, Temperance and Asylum to boost my Healing potency?
Why do I need Cure 2, Afflatus Solace, Tetra and Benediction for ST healing? Throw Cure 1 in if you want to get technical about it.

Damn... They're all different though... And even spells of similar heal potency like Medica and Afflatus Rapture have Afflatus being tied to a resource so in the event of death, you won't have access to it immediately upon res so you at least other ogcds not tied to resource to heal with to help your mana recoup.

[Silver-Strider]

But what would be the system here? A basic 1,2,3?

That depends on the Healer
WHM can have a branching combo that's all about maintaining buffs
SCH can have DoTs
AST could have more ways to interact with their Cards
SGE could have a series of nukes

I firmly believe that Healers should have a gameplay loop that actively encourages them to DPS so that it feeds into their Healing Toolkits and vice versa. Things like the Diacloud suggestion in which Regen/Medica 2 make Aero/Dia into Nukes, having SCH's DoTs build up the Fairy Gauge, SGE having several DPS skills that heal via Kardia at varying potencies, etc.

And if it just remembers the position in the combo, what is the use of its existence?

SE already did this by making the ranged skills on all melee DPS/Tanks not break their combos so there's already precedent for GCDs to not break the combo and GCD heals could follow suit. If we go by my design for each healer, WHM would be the job that is most affected by needing to heal via their GCDs since they have a combo that they need to maintain. How to counter this would be to simply give GCD heals the ability to refresh whatever buffs that WHM has so as to not lose out on their benefits and allows for them to continue DPSing. They'd still have Diacloud that solves the issue with Regen/Medica 2 but the rest of their toolkit would need to be looked at in order for it to work so let's try.

Say that WHM has a 1-2-3 Buff Combo and a 1-4-5 DPS combo. 1-2-3 provides Cleric Stance for 15s, meaning that WHM would need to refresh Cleric Stance every other combo. Now, let's say that Afflatus Solace/Rapture refreshed Cleric Stance. It means you can ignore the DPS loss of needing to do your 1-2-3 rotation to reacquire your Cleric Stance buff and continue to use your 1-4-5 Combo instead. It would need more fine tuning, but it could definitely work.

[Silver-Strider]

Damn... They're all different though... And even spells of similar heal potency like Medica and Afflatus Rapture have Afflatus being tied to a resource so in the event of death, you won't have access to it immediately upon res so you at least other ogcds not tied to resource to heal with to help your mana recoup.

That still doesn't excuse needing half of those skills.
Afflatus Skills could literally become a Trait that Cure 2/Medica become free instant cast skills when a Lily is available and considering that AST's seals don't disappear on death anymore, I fail to see why WHM and SCH are still SoL when it comes to their resource tools. Cure 1/Cure 2 could literally be merged with no real consequence. PI could just be removed and Temperance could have its CD reduced to 60s instead of 120s. Cure 3 could be removed and Medica could just get a potency buff. I don't need 20+ skills when I could just make adjustments to my current toolkit that would accomplish the same exact thing. The sheer amount of bloat in our healing toolkits just doesn't have any logical reason to exist other than neglect in terms of healing toolkits.

[UkcsAlias]

That depends on the Healer

I like the concrete ideas here as thats exactly the sort of info that hopefully inspires SE.

It works for tanks. Why wouldn't it work for healers? Heals or ogcd's do not have to interrupt the combo.

SE already did this by making the ranged skills on all melee DPS/Tanks not break their combos so there's already precedent for GCDs to not break the combo and GCD heals could follow suit.

The issue on this is, for tanks DPS is required to maintain emnity. Its a key factor within the role, and to maintain good emnity maximizing DPS is the optimal way to play. For a healer, its technicaly a side task. The primary task is to keep teammates alive (which they do through healing). Multi button combo systems do actualy distract from this. Which is why if such combo is added, it has to have a meaning. Sure, a healer still should normaly optimize dps, but the kit should not represent this requirement in order to avoid players pushing it too much. A wasted heal is still generaly still better than missing a heal. If your teammate dies or has to resolve to panic healing etc, that removes a much bigger portion of dps/sustain after all.

Luckily you also had ideas to take an approach here (still, for compacting i would aim towards 1-2-4 and 1-3-4 as system where the 4 button adjusts based on the 2 or 3 press, while preserving the dynamic aspect). Other than that, its just throwing around ideas to which you cant realy say what is going to be balanced/fun (but then again, i did the same earlier).

And maybe we can even have a 3rd combo feature in it: pressing 4 without the 2 or 3 before, allows the 1 button to get some benefit. (to enable even more finetuning in usage)

[LeonKeyh]

Damn... They're all different though... And even spells of similar heal potency like Medica and Afflatus Rapture have Afflatus being tied to a resource so in the event of death, you won't have access to it immediately upon res so you at least other ogcds not tied to resource to heal with to help your mana recoup.

There's definitely SOME nuance to each of the healing spells, but that nuance would be much better stated if you weren't DPSing for ~80% of your button presses. That nuance should be moved to the kit that you spend a majority of time using. It really seems like that nuance is there just to try to make higher level healing "more complex" but it doesn't do a great job at it. It seems to merely be to try to make it look like you're getting more and more "powerful" as a healer.


Personally, I don't think that healers having "combos" is really enough, but it's definitely an improvement. I think they should make Healers have a more active support role when it comes to increasing teammates' DPS, like Astrologian does right now. Not something that is "press this button every time it becomes available." It would be something that is always available and the healers would need to keep running. Maybe one healer would have a combo with increasing cast time as you go through the combo and the final ability will refresh the buff on everyone. Maybe SCH would tick up the Fairy gauge by keeping multiple DoTs on enemies and when the Fairy Gauge is full they have access to an ability that buffs everyone.

I don't know what it would look like, and I still think that just making the healers' DPS kits "better" is good enough. I'm just trying to think of something that doesn't result in the healer continuing to be a DPS that uses a heal every once in a while. I'm trying to think of something _different_.

[Silver-Strider]

(still, for compacting i would aim towards 1-2-4 and 1-3-4 as system where the 4 button adjusts based on the 2 or 3 press, while preserving the dynamic aspect). Other than that, its just throwing around ideas to which you cant realy say what is going to be balanced/fun (but then again, i did the same earlier).

And maybe we can even have a 3rd combo feature in it: pressing 4 without the 2 or 3 before, allows the 1 button to get some benefit. (to enable even more finetuning in usage)

I can work with this.

1- Stone/Glare
2- Tornado/Aeolus
3- Water/Banish
4- Seraph Strike which changes depending on which combo we go with.

1-2-4 - Grants Cleric Stance (5% extra Damage for 18s)
1-3-4 - Grants Divine Seal ready, turning Stone/Glare into Divine Seal
Divine Seal is an Instant cast slightly higher potency Stone/Glare that Combos into Seraph Strike for an AoE nuke with fall off and applies Confession to nearby allies, increasing the healing they receive by 5% for 10s.

Rough Idea but for a 5 second spitball, I think it looks good.

[Semirhage]

Honestly, I have no real strong opinions about the state of healer DPS skills. I'm even a fan that they made all healers able to weave on almost all dps spells now. I just play whatever the game gives me... If they add combos in the future, I'll play that too. Whatever

Good for you. Most of us find pressing 11111111111 for most of an encounter to be incredibly unengaging gameplay. Your solution is "whatever, just don't care about it and it's fine"

Or. I could play a game that's actually fun, that's a solution too. I've been taking that one.

[pinkbubblegum]

Or. I could play a game that's actually fun, that's a solution too. I've been taking that one.

Sure. Just sounds like an easy way to get disillusioned is all

[Risvertasashi]

Honestly, I have no real strong opinions about the state of healer DPS skills. I'm even a fan that they made all healers able to weave on almost all dps spells now. I just play whatever the game gives me... If they add combos in the future, I'll play that too. Whatever honestly.

Good for you. Most of us find pressing 11111111111 for most of an encounter to be incredibly unengaging gameplay. Your solution is "whatever, just don't care about it and it's fine"

Or. I could play a game that's actually fun, that's a solution too. I've been taking that one.

The thing about this is... I wouldn't mind super simple DPS if there was a lot of healing to do, and I were constantly thinking about how to optimize/execute that.

The problem with 111111111121111111111112 DPS is when that's 90%+ of your gameplay. I'd prefer more emphasis on healing, personally, but with Endwalker, healing requirements have never been so low, despite years and years of requests to make it higher. So, since that obviously won't happen, a bit more complexity and impact on the DPS end would be nice.

Buuut, that isn't happening either. Which is why I've just left it behind. I guess all the more power to those that like it, though...

[Jirah]

Considering tank runs are a thing we kinda don’t even need DPS much less multiple Healers. I’ve said this countless of times how backwards the dungeon and 24 man design is. No coordination, no DPS checks no healer checks it’s just button mashing really or a rousing game of follow the leader.