Hrothgar Feedback Thread

[Midareyukki]

This is a thread to provide Square Enix with concise and organized feedback from fans about the state of the Hrothgar race, the playerbase’s outlook it and what we hope can be done to improve content made for us.

I’d like to preface this by saying we understand there are nuances when it comes to making a videogame. Whether it is finances, decisions from higher ups or technological limitations. Our objectives must be within the boundaries of possibility and reality, not wishful thinking.

What Led to This

Though this follows the aftermath of the “6.1 Hrothgar Hairstyles” topic, the situation goes beyond that.

When Hrothgar were announced, it was said we would be a single-gender race, like Viera at the time. That due to constraints, making headgear for us would not be feasible. We were led to believe this was temporary, and that a good reception would change the minds of those making the game. After all, that happened before, in other content. But that was not the case. It’s been over 3 years, and Square Enix’s stance remains the same, though inconsistent, as some headpieces do fit us while others don’t.

When the Benchmark for Shadowbringers was released, it was revealed Hrothgar had no option to change hairstyles. If one wanted to change to their counterpart hair, they would have to pay real money for a Fantasia and change their head entirely. Only with 6.1 has it changed, and the most painful part is how Square never acknowledged it.

We were told we would get more customization in 6.1. Hrothgar players eagerly awaited for the announcement in LLs, which did not happen until the final one before the patch. On April 1st, notorious for being April Fool’s, the devs presented the implemented hairstyles. Not only were they considered “the worst fitting” by a crushing majority of Hrothgar players, they were quickly derided as awful by the rest of the playerbase… with a lack of ears to rub salt in the wound.

Indeed, we were told by Yoshida himself the reason our hairstyles would not feature ears is due to the way our heads are designed. An idea later parroted by Zhexos, our Community Representative. The excuse convinced no one, and if anything, served to spark even more outrage. People with a technological understanding of how the game is made showed us what the problem was and how the characters were assembled. Modders also proved how even with a different head form, it was very much still possible to make fitting hairstyles without culling ears without much fuss.

Worse: Yoshida claimed to be surprised that we reacted with outrage. Considering this was the reaction of the majority of the playerbase, it shows an unpleasant disconnect.

Finally, once players voiced their discomfort and fear that these hairstyles would not be featured in the Aesthetician, as Square never acknowledged the issue, the final patch notes were edited to feature a note informing us they would be. But even that came with a cost.

[Midareyukki]

Due to a lack of additions to Hrothgar and Viera, among other reasons, many turned to modding. Though it is against the ToS to do so, many players felt they were getting more from mods on customization than they did with Square’s work.

Then there is the silence about Hrothgars, with players feeling that all the attention is concentrated onto Viera. Viera are always the first to be referred to in LL’s, Hrothgar were second, if mentioned at all. Or as stated before, us needing to buy a fantasia to change hairstyles was never acknowledged. As we understand it, this is due to Viera being more popular than Hrothgar.

Yet popularity is nurtured. Beast-type races are not the most played in MMOs, and indeed the number of Hrothgar players reflects that. However, we find the number to be diminished due to factors such as how Hrothgar and Viera are notoriously incomplete, with limitations that do not exist in other races. As well as Square not promoting Hrothgar in a healthy way for the playerbase.

Bozja is content meant to promote Hrothgars, yes, but the way it was handled was shoddy. Not only is Hrothgar lore lacking due to cultural erasure, a lot of it is contradicting and based on Sharlayan assumptions, and what little we did have got ruined:
- Queen Gunnhildr is retconned into a female Roegadyn
- The Blades are introduced, then immediately killed
- The Warrior of Light's failure to save them, despite Delubrum's story being tied to us finding a cure for Tempering in the MSQ, which we must clear to access DR.

The major Hrothgar NPCs outside of Bozja are:
- Runar, a positive portrayal who, despite having left a lasting impression on Y’shtola and becomes her motivation, is never once mentioned by name in Endwalker
- Magnus, a mixed portrayal, whose role is remembered by most as starting out hostile to the player due to extreme depression and loss
- Radovan, who is optional, a former Bozjan soldier with clear trauma and suffering who is told to “just move on” by an insensitive Viera “partner”.
- Rostik demands players beat side-content to get to know him
There were no Hrothgar in EW’s MSQ. Mute Bozjan NPCs do not count when Male Viera had a voiced portrayal, despite being “rarer”.

We remember there was “hard work done behind Yoshida” before SHB to implement headgear for us. But even the headgear we have does not properly fit our faces.

All this led to our reaction when 6.1 was released.

[Midareyukki]

Players have analyzed the game and the way it is structured, leading to some particularly awkward reveals in 6.1. In simple terms:

a) Rather than decoupling racial Hrothgar hairstyles from the head’s model to make them available in the Aesthetician, the developers simply duplicated the head models. There is actually a total of 32 heads: 16 are the original ones (8 for Helions and 8 for the Lost), the rest are duplicates. Meaning you’re still changing your head model when you change racial hairstyles.

This is suspicious. Other races do not have this quirk. Considering the final patch notes for 6.1 had a last-minute red note on the Aesthetician makes us wonder if this was a last-minute change.

b) We were told twice our head models are done differently. Hrothgar ears are tied to their head model, unlike Miqo’te whose ears are separate from their head. Square maintains that this gets in the way of making hair. Square’s phobia of clipping side, which a good portion of the playerbase does not share, why not detach the ears like on other races?

No, what Square did was isolate the ears’s polygons and hide them entirely. We’re told that “it would be too much work”… but there’s a solution. Since they isolated the ears to render them invisible, they could have just as well separated them and done what they did for Miqo’te. Other races do not suffer from this.

This has been done by amateurs. Source 1. And Source 2.

c) We know that the way Hrothgars are done is sloppy. Polygons in the wrong place, reused assets and a growing danger of things not working the way they were intended in the future. We feel designed from the start to fail on-launch.

We know Square intends to upscale the legacy races in the following patches. But I fear the priorities are jumbled here. Because it’s clear other races are in a larger need of attention before the classic races get their lift. Otherwise it’s just more years with a sub-par character we paid for.

[Midareyukki]

d) This it isn’t a problem with heads: we have hairstyles altered to fit both Miqo’te and Roegadyn heads. And modders have been able make hair with better results and quality. So why not alter the hairstyle like they did? Oh… Bravo on the attempt?


This is discriminatory and grossly lacking in effort.

According to Yoshida, he is aware people are upset and claimed to work hard to fix this issue at a later date. Yet the wording perpetuates this inaccurate notion that “it’s too hard” when it isn’t, and that they’ve only now found out about this when amateurs have been exposing it for years.

Nor do we want it done “now”. We just want it done responsibly. Yoshida assumes that we are demanding a quick and easy fix, but this is pinning the blame on the playerbase. For one, players waited for three years for attention, and this is the best you have? Earless Potato 2B? And then, we understand how slowly it’s taken Square Enix to do anything. We wouldn’t be asking for quick and immediate content for us, because it’s clear that even when we’re patient, Earless Potato 2B is the best we get!

You are the ones dejecting your own quality, not the fans.

And it’s on you to figure out what you can do and allocate resources for it. Not wing the situation and expect people to take it. We are not a meme race, and we are not letting you turn us into one.

d) When you take all that’s been said, it proves why people are so allured by third party tools. If it took not even a week for people to make something like this, then you, Square Enix, a multi-million dollar company with cutting edge technology and people with experience in making 3D characters, need to step up your game.

When your own apologies do not match your words, Square, we have a problem. One called bias.

We were told “No expenses were spared” in Endwalker. Yet our experience has been limited for years, and it feels the devs only think of us at the last minute.

Is “your best” for us malicious compliance? Are all of us wishing on a monkey's paw?

Grapes had more attention than we did.

[Midareyukki]

I hope the previous three posts made it clearer why Hrothgar players have felt neglected for the past 3 years. Why we consider the current situation unacceptable. We understand there have been limitations (COVID, work on FF16). But it’s still not enough a justification for the way this situation has been handled: with low effort, silence and dismissal. Thus:

1 – We ask you review your priorities when it comes to these races. We wish for what’s already implemented to be fixed and treated like everyone else. Hrothgar feel discriminated by the development team

2 – We demand transparency. It’s clear the communication between developers and fans has been one-sided. It makes it easy to ignore the voices of those who feel slighted (such as us being unable to change hairstyles without buying an item with real-life money), and also serves to perpetuate misconceptions about the state of the game. Ones which fans with proper know-how are able to analyze and expose

3 – We wish for more effort from the development team when it comes to content made for us. 6.1 is rushed. It’s disrespectful. Fans perceived the announcement on April Fool’s, with the devs giggling on-camera to horrendous and meme-worthy renders of “Karen Hrothgar”, as negative and dismissive. The devs should have realized it and known better rather than act surprised

4 – Seek to listen to us. Rather than excuses, understand what fans of this race want. Don’t let others speak for us.

5 – Acknowledge our patience. Our silence was patience and faith, not quiet consent.

6 – Hrothgar may be 2% of the playerbase, but you promised no fan would be left out. That if a demographic complained, you'd listen. Honour your word.

7 – Strive for better quality for us in the future. Do not neglect us.

It’s likely that there are many more sentiments the Hrothgar community wishes to express, which I likely skipped or could not fit into an already-lengthy thread.
Which is why I invite Hrothgar players to comment their sentiments and feedback here in a structured way.

Put forward your opinions and knowledge on the situation, with better clarifications if required, and give proper feedback on the situation so the game grows healthily with our race in toe.

But do not speak for the development team. Please understand there has been bad faith on both sides and we Hrothgar players seek to mend it. This is our foot forward. Allow us the chance to communicate to the development team about our grievances, and allow THEM to properly assess and respond.

And please do not give feedback on other races here, as while our situation overlaps others, it is not the same. We want the devs to hear Hrothgars’ very limited voice.

[Gullis]

Hrothgar NPCs find gruesome fates (such as being eaten alive by a hound, or descriptions on Dabog). Though visceral fates have been a part of the MSQ, they were never this graphic, with violence this gratuitous. This harsh tone permeates Bozja.

Out of curiosity where does this happen?

[Akimori]

- The Warrior of Light's failure to save them, despite Delubrum's story being tied to us finding a cure for Tempering in the MSQ, which we must clear to access DR.
Hrothgar NPCs find gruesome fates (such as being eaten alive by a hound, or descriptions on Dabog). Though visceral fates have been a part of the MSQ, they were never this graphic, with violence this gratuitous. This harsh tone permeates Bozja.

I remember all hrothgar deaths and the one about the hound doesn't ring a bell. When did that one happen o-o?

We also had 1 "female hroth" death off screen, magnus's wife who people are theorizing to be storg. But you are right about the deaths. We get plenty of them in XIV, but I dont think any of them have been nearly as gruesome as Hrothgar's (Ahewan's death aside....and tesleen). If another race is killed, either they're killed quickly in an almost painless fashion or its implied, off screen that they were killed

NGL, I dont exactly remember the death about the hrothgar being eaten alive by a hound. Was that in

[Chie_M]

I remember all hrothgar deaths and the one about the hound doesn't ring a bell. When did that one happen o-o?

We also had 1 "female hroth" death off screen, magnus's wife who people are theorizing to be storg. But you are right about the deaths. We get plenty of them in XIV, but I dont think any of them have been nearly as gruesome as Hrothgar's (Ahewan's death aside....and tesleen). If another race is killed, either they're killed quickly in an almost painless fashion or its implied, off screen that they were killed

NGL, I dont exactly remember the death about the hrothgar being eaten alive by a hound. Was that in

Valens van Varro was exceptionally graphic and had gruesome sound effects, to boot. I utterly adore Hrothgar, but this argument is grasping a bit and ultimately detracts from the overall criticism of the race.

[Akimori]

Valens van Varro was exceptionally graphic and had gruesome sound effects, to boot. I utterly adore Hrothgar, but this argument is grasping a bit and ultimately detracts from the overall criticism of the race.

No lie. I just watched it. A "pop" and "liquid" dripping doesn't really sound gruesome to me, but you are right that it ultimately detracts from the overall criticism

[Midareyukki]

I remember all hrothgar deaths and the one about the hound doesn't ring a bell. When did that one happen o-o?

We also had 1 "female hroth" death off screen, magnus's wife who people are theorizing to be storg. But you are right about the deaths. We get plenty of them in XIV, but I dont think any of them have been nearly as gruesome as Hrothgar's (Ahewan's death aside....and tesleen). If another race is killed, either they're killed quickly in an almost painless fashion or its implied, off screen that they were killed

NGL, I dont exactly remember the death about the hrothgar being eaten alive by a hound. Was that in

Zadnor. One of the FATEs starts with Hrothgar being eaten alive by a Cerberus-type mob. As in, just before the FATE actually starts, you see an animated scene where a three-headed hound chomps on some Hrothgars. And that's when the FATE then starts.
Same as another FATE where they're turned into Archaeodemons from FF Tactics by the Puppetmaster.
The only time violence against people in Bozja isn't overtly directed at Hrothgar or the Blades is the prisoner bit before fighting Adrammelech in Castrum Lacus Litore.
And again, that's to say nothing of Delubrum's deal with the Blades nor the Dabog Fates.

Yes, I remember Valens van Varro... being so cartoonishly evil and a clear hate-sink I questioned why Square was escalating on the gratuitous violence. But in Zadnor, particularly after Delubrum, they started displaying it so graphically for no reason. A couple children was already in bad taste, and it only served to make people wish Valens a death as quick as possible.

But the whole of Bozja is like this, just on and on. And while Valens does have an ending, Bozja is made clear that things aren't over, and all the ones involved apart from Gilbrisbert get away with it scot-free.

Edit: I might be wrong on the creature. I may be saying it's Cerberus-looking creature but that might be false. I'll hop onto Zadnor and Bozja to try and see if it spawns. I know it exists though. It even has a sound effect when they get munched. If so, I'll correct myself.

No lie. I just watched it. A "pop" and "liquid" dripping doesn't really sound gruesome to me, but you are right that it ultimately detracts from the overall criticism

It doesn't just because you don't remember those FATEs.

Intensity is the problem here. And the fact that it's done so repetitively and so gruesomely is an escalation in intensity.

Because sure! We've had gratuitous violence before, with people being stabbed and all the deal with Tesleen and whatnot. But it wasn't so concurrent and ever-present. Nor was it constantly targetted. Because otherwise I wouldn't have a problem. But all the victims SHOWN to us are Hrothgar. And that's what I'm referring to.

"Oh but it's Bozja and it's a warzone, it's natural Hrothgar would be shown".

We've had content with stuff like this before, it wasn't ever displayed this graphically. At least not of a playable race. And Bozja isn't home only to Hrothgar. We have Roegadyn and Highlander NPCs. Yet none of them meet such an animated fate on-screen. Hrothgars do.