The absolute state of Frontlines

[Gserpent]

It is quite amused that Japanese and English are so different in regard to which job is OP.
Japanese want a nerf of BLM, not SMN.

JP are a lot less stupid when it comes to FL, or so I've heard. SMN isn't really an issue if you don't clump up like a bunch of morons, and don't use Guard. It's annoying but it's not really a *problem.*

RE: MNK, yeah it's always struck me as fucking weird that RoE doesn't just automatically pop on duration expiration even though virtually all similar skills (notably, Macrocosmos) do. It really should pop automatically.

[Divinemights]

Unfortunately, the Summoner is just overrated job that manifesting from NA's unique Horde stampede playstyle.
The summoner only get trigger happy on NA frontline because most of tank of melee is not marking target.
Crimson Cyclone basically is a clown move especially under JP's high coordination envrionment

[EchoYggdrasil]

and don't use Guard.

You can't Guard against a Bahamut after it's been summoned and is doing its initial hit. Combine that with four of them dropping on you at once and it just instantly kills you, giving the Summoner easy High, and making it easier to do it next time for them.

Just got out of a match where there were at least 15 Summoners on the enemy teams combined, and they dropped 6-8 Bahamuts on the ice and nuked my entire team down quickly.

Ridiculous.

[Gserpent]

You can't Guard against a Bahamut after it's been summoned and is doing its initial hit. Combine that with four of them dropping on you at once and it just instantly kills you, giving the Summoner easy High, and making it easier to do it next time for them.

Just got out of a match where there were at least 15 Summoners on the enemy teams combined, and they dropped 6-8 Bahamuts on the ice and nuked my entire team down quickly.

Ridiculous.

It's so obvious when and where they will be throwing out Bahamut. Guard in advance or just don't be there. Seriously, it's not hard.

[gioroggia]

It's so obvious when and where they will be throwing out Bahamut. Guard in advance or just don't be there. Seriously, it's not hard.

By all means, do that. Use your guard when you *think* three of the many summoners on the other side will cast bahamut. You will survive, you will be without guard, and most of your teammates will be dead around you anyway.

I can't remember the last time I died to a bahamut myself, but that doesn't stop summoners from wrecking my entire team or forcing me to retreat. That doesn't stop summoners from getting to battle high 5 very, very quickly due to the very large AOE and ease of use of their LB. That doesn't stop summoners from filling up the top damage slots on most games. That doesn't stop the team with the most summoners from having a cheap, low-skill advantage.

It is what it is, and it's pointless to discuss it. Just look at the number of summoners and how they place at the end of each FL match.

[Gserpent]

By all means, do that. Use your guard when you *think* three of the many summoners on the other side will cast bahamut. You will survive, you will be without guard, and most of your teammates will be dead around you anyway.

I can't remember the last time I died to a bahamut myself, but that doesn't stop summoners from wrecking my entire team or forcing me to retreat. That doesn't stop summoners from getting to battle high 5 very, very quickly due to the very large AOE and ease of use of their LB. That doesn't stop summoners from filling up the top damage slots on most games. That doesn't stop the team with the most summoners from having a cheap, low-skill advantage.

It is what it is, and it's pointless to discuss it. Just look at the number of summoners and how they place at the end of each FL match.

And yet JP doesn't have an issue dealing with them. SMN is clearly not a big deal, it's just people are trash.

[Divinemights]

By all means, do that. Use your guard when you *think* three of the many summoners on the other side will cast bahamut. You will survive, you will be without guard, and most of your teammates will be dead around you anyway.

I can't remember the last time I died to a bahamut myself, but that doesn't stop summoners from wrecking my entire team or forcing me to retreat. That doesn't stop summoners from getting to battle high 5 very, very quickly due to the very large AOE and ease of use of their LB. That doesn't stop summoners from filling up the top damage slots on most games. That doesn't stop the team with the most summoners from having a cheap, low-skill advantage.

It is what it is, and it's pointless to discuss it. Just look at the number of summoners and how they place at the end of each FL match.

Sorry, I can't feel your pain
The most of summoners in my game either get baited and killed by me at a remote location at Shattered or dead by focus fire because I place focus countdown on them.
Any brave one charge towards me with Crimson Cyclone will get stunned then got sent to in middle of my team to get focus fired.
There are few can reach BH5 but they are veterans, and yea, veterans are veterans

[gioroggia]

And yet JP doesn't have an issue dealing with them. SMN is clearly not a big deal, it's just people are trash.

You can say "people are trash" as many times as you want but it won't change the nature of frontlines. People will still be "trash", as you say it, and balance has to take into consideration how the game is actually played and how that in turn affects the gameplay. A hypothetical counter which people never use or which creates other types of problems (such as spreading out) doesn't mean much. That is why Summoners still dominate most matches.

I do wonder why Summoners supposedly do not dominate in Japan's FL, but over here that does happen and there is no sign that it will change.

[gioroggia]

Sorry, I can't feel your pain
The most of summoners in my game either get baited and killed by me at a remote location at Shattered or dead by focus fire because I place focus countdown on them.
Any brave one charge towards me with Crimson Cyclone will get stunned then got sent to in middle of my team to get focus fired.
There are few can reach BH5 but they are veterans, and yea, veterans are veterans

But what you are saying here applies to any job. It's not a weakness of summoners which somehow compensates for the elements that are unbalanced in FL.

[Gserpent]

You can say "people are trash" as many times as you want but it won't change the nature of frontlines. People will still be "trash", as you say it, and balance has to take into consideration how the game is actually played and how that in turn affects the gameplay. A hypothetical counter which people never use or which creates other types of problems (such as spreading out) doesn't mean much. That is why Summoners still dominate most matches.

I do wonder why Summoners supposedly do not dominate in Japan's FL, but over here that does happen and there is no sign that it will change.

That's the thing though - it's not unbalanced. It's fine. The proper change here is *no change at all.* The issue is a player skill and knowledge issue, *not a balance issue.*

You do not ever, *ever* design or balance a competitive game around the majority of (typically very, very bad) players. You balance it around the very best, and the impacts of those changes trickle down to the lower tiers of player. FL isn't some kind of sweaty hardcore esports game and isn't intended to be, but it's still a competitive game and should still be tuned like one.

SMN does not need any changes whatsoever, beyond the likely *systemic* changes we can expect - higher DR on melee and tanks, longer LB charge times, and so on. You said yourself that you don't die to SMN/Megaflare spamming, so that *very obviously* means that it's something that doesn't need adjustment - it needs players to stop playing like complete garbage.