The absolute state of Frontlines

[Gserpent]

You can't Guard against a Bahamut after it's been summoned and is doing its initial hit. Combine that with four of them dropping on you at once and it just instantly kills you, giving the Summoner easy High, and making it easier to do it next time for them.

Just got out of a match where there were at least 15 Summoners on the enemy teams combined, and they dropped 6-8 Bahamuts on the ice and nuked my entire team down quickly.

Ridiculous.

It's so obvious when and where they will be throwing out Bahamut. Guard in advance or just don't be there. Seriously, it's not hard.

[gioroggia]

It's so obvious when and where they will be throwing out Bahamut. Guard in advance or just don't be there. Seriously, it's not hard.

By all means, do that. Use your guard when you *think* three of the many summoners on the other side will cast bahamut. You will survive, you will be without guard, and most of your teammates will be dead around you anyway.

I can't remember the last time I died to a bahamut myself, but that doesn't stop summoners from wrecking my entire team or forcing me to retreat. That doesn't stop summoners from getting to battle high 5 very, very quickly due to the very large AOE and ease of use of their LB. That doesn't stop summoners from filling up the top damage slots on most games. That doesn't stop the team with the most summoners from having a cheap, low-skill advantage.

It is what it is, and it's pointless to discuss it. Just look at the number of summoners and how they place at the end of each FL match.

[Gserpent]

By all means, do that. Use your guard when you *think* three of the many summoners on the other side will cast bahamut. You will survive, you will be without guard, and most of your teammates will be dead around you anyway.

I can't remember the last time I died to a bahamut myself, but that doesn't stop summoners from wrecking my entire team or forcing me to retreat. That doesn't stop summoners from getting to battle high 5 very, very quickly due to the very large AOE and ease of use of their LB. That doesn't stop summoners from filling up the top damage slots on most games. That doesn't stop the team with the most summoners from having a cheap, low-skill advantage.

It is what it is, and it's pointless to discuss it. Just look at the number of summoners and how they place at the end of each FL match.

And yet JP doesn't have an issue dealing with them. SMN is clearly not a big deal, it's just people are trash.

[gioroggia]

And yet JP doesn't have an issue dealing with them. SMN is clearly not a big deal, it's just people are trash.

You can say "people are trash" as many times as you want but it won't change the nature of frontlines. People will still be "trash", as you say it, and balance has to take into consideration how the game is actually played and how that in turn affects the gameplay. A hypothetical counter which people never use or which creates other types of problems (such as spreading out) doesn't mean much. That is why Summoners still dominate most matches.

I do wonder why Summoners supposedly do not dominate in Japan's FL, but over here that does happen and there is no sign that it will change.

[Gserpent]

You can say "people are trash" as many times as you want but it won't change the nature of frontlines. People will still be "trash", as you say it, and balance has to take into consideration how the game is actually played and how that in turn affects the gameplay. A hypothetical counter which people never use or which creates other types of problems (such as spreading out) doesn't mean much. That is why Summoners still dominate most matches.

I do wonder why Summoners supposedly do not dominate in Japan's FL, but over here that does happen and there is no sign that it will change.

That's the thing though - it's not unbalanced. It's fine. The proper change here is *no change at all.* The issue is a player skill and knowledge issue, *not a balance issue.*

You do not ever, *ever* design or balance a competitive game around the majority of (typically very, very bad) players. You balance it around the very best, and the impacts of those changes trickle down to the lower tiers of player. FL isn't some kind of sweaty hardcore esports game and isn't intended to be, but it's still a competitive game and should still be tuned like one.

SMN does not need any changes whatsoever, beyond the likely *systemic* changes we can expect - higher DR on melee and tanks, longer LB charge times, and so on. You said yourself that you don't die to SMN/Megaflare spamming, so that *very obviously* means that it's something that doesn't need adjustment - it needs players to stop playing like complete garbage.

[gioroggia]

That's the thing though - it's not unbalanced. It's fine. The proper change here is *no change at all.* The issue is a player skill and knowledge issue, *not a balance issue.*

You do not ever, *ever* design or balance a competitive game around the majority of (typically very, very bad) players. You balance it around the very best, and the impacts of those changes trickle down to the lower tiers of player. FL isn't some kind of sweaty hardcore esports game and isn't intended to be, but it's still a competitive game and should still be tuned like one.

SMN does not need any changes whatsoever, beyond the likely *systemic* changes we can expect - higher DR on melee and tanks, longer LB charge times, and so on. You said yourself that you don't die to SMN/Megaflare spamming, so that *very obviously* means that it's something that doesn't need adjustment - it needs players to stop playing like complete garbage.

Hey, buddy, not a single FL match is played solely by the "very best". Note that you are referring to a hypothetical, nonexistent state of the game where people are much better than they actually are, and founding your argument upon what you THINK would happen if the game were that way. Not only are you relying on a state of the world that does not exist, but you are also making weak, unverifiable claims about it. That makes for a very flimsy argument.

On the other hand, you can join any FL game and most of the time summoners will occupy most if not all of the top-damage spots and will be the first to reach Battle High V. That is actual, solid evidence of the imbalance exists in the state of the game as it is, regardless of how you believe it would be in your hypothetical, nonexistent world.

The image is of course just anedoctal evidence, but it is a pattern we are all too familiar with.

[Gserpent]

Hey, buddy, not a single FL match is played solely by the "very best". Note that you are referring to a hypothetical, nonexistent state of the game where people are much better than they actually are, and founding your argument upon what you THINK would happen if the game were that way. Not only are you relying on a state of the world that does not exist, but you are also making weak, unverifiable claims about it. That makes for a very flimsy argument.

On the other hand, you can join any FL game and most of the time summoners will occupy most if not all of the top-damage spots and will be the first to reach Battle High V. That is actual, solid evidence of the imbalance exists in the state of the game as it is, regardless of how you believe it would be in your hypothetical, nonexistent world.

The image is of course just anedoctal evidence, but it is a pattern we are all too familiar with.

I agree, but you design competitive games around the best players - you assume that everyone is playing as they're supposed to be playing. Balancing around the lower end of players is a stupid design choice, because the lower end of players are just going to scream that you should nerf/remove anything that they can't handle (which would be literally everything, if we're talking about viewing them as a large group) and that's an impossible task if you want to have a game that's still actually fun to play. Fuck's sake, dude, there's probably people trying to get things nerfed or changed in Fall Guys or something.

And, no, competitive doesn't mean sweaty esports. A game where you put two teams of players (or two individual players or whatever) in direct competition with each other is, by definition, a competitive game. If you don't build the game by assuming people will be playing the way they're *supposed* to be playing, you're going to have a rotten mess of a game. Imagine if Starcraft was balanced around low skill players that can't handle a 12pool or proxy rax reaper opening. It'd be terrible.

If the issue is a PEBKAC error, it's not something you need to make balance or design changes for. SE could certainly do a hell of a lot better at teaching people how to play their game, though. Maybe that's a good starting place. Most people in FL have absolutely no fucking clue what they're doing because there's no "safe" place to practice (thumping target dummies doesn't really count and duels are meaningless in a game not designed to have meaningful 1v1 combat), much less any kind of effective way of talking things over during or between games.

Like, imagine if DF was the only way you could do savage raids; no pre-formed parties, no way of determining who gets into your party or if you'll see them again next lockout, etc. Can you imagine how much of a fucking dumpster fire that would be? Except that's what PvP is right now. So is it any wonder there's such a pervasive "why should I care?" attitude?

[Sigma860]

Hey, buddy, not a single FL match is played solely by the "very best". Note that you are referring to a hypothetical, nonexistent state of the game where people are much better than they actually are, and founding your argument upon what you THINK would happen if the game were that way. Not only are you relying on a state of the world that does not exist, but you are also making weak, unverifiable claims about it. That makes for a very flimsy argument.

On the other hand, you can join any FL game and most of the time summoners will occupy most if not all of the top-damage spots and will be the first to reach Battle High V. That is actual, solid evidence of the imbalance exists in the state of the game as it is, regardless of how you believe it would be in your hypothetical, nonexistent world.

The image is of course just anedoctal evidence, but it is a pattern we are all too familiar with.

That picture is so true. Then you click the HP Restored tab and it's all White Mages in the top 10 spots.

[Divinemights]

By all means, do that. Use your guard when you *think* three of the many summoners on the other side will cast bahamut. You will survive, you will be without guard, and most of your teammates will be dead around you anyway.

I can't remember the last time I died to a bahamut myself, but that doesn't stop summoners from wrecking my entire team or forcing me to retreat. That doesn't stop summoners from getting to battle high 5 very, very quickly due to the very large AOE and ease of use of their LB. That doesn't stop summoners from filling up the top damage slots on most games. That doesn't stop the team with the most summoners from having a cheap, low-skill advantage.

It is what it is, and it's pointless to discuss it. Just look at the number of summoners and how they place at the end of each FL match.

Sorry, I can't feel your pain
The most of summoners in my game either get baited and killed by me at a remote location at Shattered or dead by focus fire because I place focus countdown on them.
Any brave one charge towards me with Crimson Cyclone will get stunned then got sent to in middle of my team to get focus fired.
There are few can reach BH5 but they are veterans, and yea, veterans are veterans

[gioroggia]

Sorry, I can't feel your pain
The most of summoners in my game either get baited and killed by me at a remote location at Shattered or dead by focus fire because I place focus countdown on them.
Any brave one charge towards me with Crimson Cyclone will get stunned then got sent to in middle of my team to get focus fired.
There are few can reach BH5 but they are veterans, and yea, veterans are veterans

But what you are saying here applies to any job. It's not a weakness of summoners which somehow compensates for the elements that are unbalanced in FL.