Can we just take a moment to talk about Black Mage?

[Payotz]

But the fights in the vast majority of the game use mechanics that are based on the position of other players and in random group environments there isn't as much coordination as in something like a savage run, so this puts the job in an uncomfortable place.

The movement mechanics also appear every minute, which is about the time where your triplecast will be off cooldown, and where you'd have one or two xenoglossies to compensate.
I've been progging DSR as BLM, and I have no trouble keeping spell uptime even in a phase that's as movement heavy as Nidhogg wrymhole.
The only time I lose uptime during Nidhogg wymhole is when I have down arrow and I'm playing the tower baits safe, but that's not exclusive to BLM. Everyone loses uptime with back arrows if you're playing it safe.

It also makes the job very unfavorable during the learning stages since unlike just about any other job in the game, they can lose a significant amount of their combat effectiveness from having to move ...

Almost like you have to actually learn the fight to keep uptime.
Why is this bad when melees need to learn melee uptime and positionals as melee?
A lot of melees need to learn how to greed efficiently for dps uptime during mechanics. In fact, even with how dumbed down the roles are, every job except Physical Ranged needs to learn the fight to keep uptime.
Nothing wrong with having to learn the fight either. If I wanted to go into a fight and not have to learn how to keep uptime, I'd be zoning into my fc house and hitting striking dummies and pretending to raid.

Why is depth and skill expression in a video game bad?

...to the point that sometimes people feel pressured to stay in the leylines and get hit since if they survive the hit, they get the cast off. This is present in all casters, but BLM it is very pronounced.

Why are they putting leylines in what they know is a bad spot then? Learning leylines placement is a part of the fun of the job.
If you fuck up your leylines placement, then you lose dps, simple as. Learn from that failure and place it in a better spot the next pull.
Not every pull is gonna be perfect from the start. You learn the fight, and part of that learning is keeping uptime. If that's bad, then might as well turn every job into a physical ranged at that point and destroy what little skill expresison this game has.

Slapping a bunch of instant cast skills to correct a bad design choice on long casts in a game where you have to dodge attacks, when other casters with shorter cast times or more opportunities to move can dance around unimpeded, is what makes the job feel clunky.

But it is good design though. What you're looking for is to remove decision making from the hands of the players, and make the game resolve all your problems for you.
Granted, this has been the direction of the jobs ever since ShB, but this design is just plain bad and boring and unsatisfying. I'm here to play a video game, not play a visual novel.

BLM is a job that incentivizes you to learn how to make the most of it. It's not MCH where the skill floor and the skill ceiling is literally 1:1. It's a job where you can feel that you're constantly improving, constantly gaining understanding.
The fact that player choice is an ever present factor in the job's playstyle 24/7 leaves so much room for skill expression, and makes it so much satisfying to play.

In fact, it doesn't even have a static rotation. It has lines, and you choose what spells you'll do depending on the situation.
You can skip blizzard 4, skip blizzard 3, transpose to umbral fire 1 to use the fire 3 proc for more damage, or you can do the standard blizzard 3 > blizzard 4> fire 3> fire 4 blah blah lines.
Hell, there's even that meme Paradox rotation that you do that's less dps, but hey, you can play like a Physical Ranged if you want. That's fine!

The job is so flexible, so brimming with potential that it's so fun to experiment and so satisfying to squeeze every last drop of efficiency with it.

Compare that to current MCH where it's literally the same Reassemble into Drill every minute. It's brainless, constant. Your rotation will not change from fight to fight and you'll have the same experience executing a rotation in P4S or executing it on a striking dummy. It's not fun, because there's no choice to it. There's no feeling of improvement. No skill ceiling. Just brainless 1 2 3s.

Ultimately the direction they are heading with all the jobs is that the role is the job, and the job is the paint for the role. All the tanks are the same, really.

Which is terrible. Why would I play and level another tank when it plays literally like the same tank I've always played?
What's the point of releasing a new "different job" when it literally plays the same. Why is variety in job design and playstyles bad?
That drastically removes the replayability of the game. Imagine if literally all the jobs play like fucking MCH.

Leave BLM alone. It's not the worse designed job in the game. In fact, it's the best.
It's a relic of how good the job design in this game was, and it should be the standard, not the exception.

If you don't like playing the last well designed job in the game, then there's literally 16 other jobs to choose from.
Alienating the players who plays, mastered and loved the job just because you don't like putting a monochrome of effort into learning it is not it chief.

[Theodric_Thorne]

I am sure BLM players would be just as salty about changes of that nature as I am about Kaiten being removed and SAM's damage spikes getting flattened into tedium.

The only changes I feel confident in advocating for in other jobs that I don't main is just changing which abilities are given when. SAM has a complete kit at 50, many other jobs do not. It's bad enough that every job is miserable to play at low levels because of a lack of buttons in general, but when I try leveling other jobs like DRG, I'm struck by how ridiculous it is that I do not have an AoE rotation at 50. I don't think BLM has these sorts of issues.

[butchersblock]

If you're unwilling or incapable of utilizing BLM's kit perhaps SMN is more up your speed? Try that instead of advocating for changes that completely butcher the job identity and feel for most of its current playerbase

[Ceridwen]

I'd rather they didn't change it, even though I'm not very good at it myself. It was my first class, the one I leveled first through Shadowbringers. (I switched to RDM, and am happy.) It's the one class I hold as 'some day, I'll be good enough to do this right.'

There's something about thunder I don't like, though - not that it's hard, but it doesn't quite feel right. But I wouldn't change the slow cast, the need to know a fight and position correctly. It's the epitome to me, and when I see someone doing it well, I'm impressed, more than any other class.

I wouldn't want to play it when I'm tired, but fortunately, we're not locked to one job like in other mmos. I DO like the Summoner for learning fights, for when I'm tired. That used to be MCH for me, but no more. Black Mage is for when I get a lot better than I am.

[Colt47]

More like I'm not asking them to take away skills and just give them a haste buff. I'd rather have the movement be more similar to how the other casters are setup and have something else in the place of those skills that still fit the blackmage because it's been clunky for a long time and they have literally tried everything. They had to put a lot of effort to get this job to work at level 60+ mostly the same way as well because when it was going through Stormblood and Shadowbringers, you had to have the button setup depending on what level you were. Technically, we sort of still have a rotation difference pre-60, but that's like when every job is about as exciting as unsweatened oatmeal.

Also going to point out the core idea of BLM is also part of the core idea of RDM, which is bouncing between two opposites during a rotation. The only difference is the RDM system is much less clunky because they have instant casts that give them more mobility. The whole thing reminds me of the evolution of moonkin druids in WoW since both casters are like different generations of moonkin rotation. If we really want to talk about when the identity of blackmage was killed, it was when they released RDM in Stormblood. Unless we want to say that because they happen to rotate using different aesthetic abilities and a different gauge that somehow they are not a sea saw casting design done twice over.

And RDM is probably why suddenly they figured identity for paladin and red mage just means having them jump into a forced melee or spell rotation for practically no reason at all tactically.

[Payotz]

I'd rather have the movement be more similar to how the other casters are setup and have something else in the place of those skills that still fit the blackmage because it's been clunky for a long time and they have literally tried everything.

I'd rather not. Part of the learning curve for blackmage is learning how to slide cast with how varied the spell cast times are. Making all cast times universal and similar with other casters will ruin the feel of the job to please the players who don't even like the job (You) while alienating the people who love that part of it (Us).

They had to put a lot of effort to get this job to work at level 60+ mostly the same way as well because when it was going through Stormblood and Shadowbringers, you had to have the button setup depending on what level you were. Technically, we sort of still have a rotation difference pre-60, but that's like when every job is about as exciting as unsweatened oatmeal.

I am not 100% sure why you're complaining about how bad ilvl syncing does to the job design for BLM only when every job suffers from it, but sure.
I'm all in for fixing job skills below lvl cap, but not to the expense of the job design it will have at endgame.

Also going to point out the core idea of BLM is also part of the core idea of RDM, which is bouncing between two opposites during a rotation.

The core identity of BLM is the flexibility and dynamic playstyle it has. I've literally said in the previous post that it doesn't even have a rotation, it has lines because of how dynamic it is.
Saying that BLM's core identity is just a static "seesawing between two states" just proves that you don't understand the class at all.
That's like me demanding RPR become ranged because "well hurr durr what's the difference between MCH's Hypercharge and RPR's Lemure Shroud nothing hurr durr".
It reeks of ignorance.

Hell, they're not even the same thing either. Like RDM doesn't even have a state like Umbral Ice or Astral Fire. It's literally just a build gauge spend gauge job.
RDM, builds up 2 gauges and then goes in for a melee combo and 3 spell finishers.

You don't "build gauge" for BLM. its gauge build up over time. The whole playstyle for BLM is squeezing as much fire 4s out of your fire phase as possible, and spending as little time in ice phase as possible .
In fact, there's even tech where you do an insta cast after despair, transpose and pops lucid, and then paradox, and then hard casts fire 3, with the mana proccing while you're casting fire 3.

Literally the only thing that's similar with RDM and BLM is that they cast two different types of spells. White and Black magic for RDM, and Astral Fire and Umbral Ice for BLM (along with unaspected spells like Parardox and Xeno/Foul)
They play so different from each other that saying that BLM and RDM has the same core is like saying that RPR and MNK has the same core

You clearly have no understanding of the job or even casters as a role.
I suggest just searching for another job or even forcing yourself to learning BLM and actually understanding what the job is rather than taking a look at the random Duty Roulette BLM you get lumped with.
Come back here and when you actually understand what the job is.


It's also really funny how you're saying that RDM is mobile while BLM isn't when BLM can be even more mobile than RDM in some cases.
I remember O11s during Pantopraktor where RDM has no choice but to do unaspected melees because they can't cast and have no triple cast. Meanwhile BLM is just chilling with 2 procs, a Foul, and triplecast and a swiftcast with one more sharpcast.

Granted, I haven't played RDM in Endwalker endgame (cause frankly I don't like playing the job), but unless they gave RDM triplecast as an ogcd, I still think BLM has more on demand mobility while RDM is still forced to do unaspected melees.

[LeonKeyh]

<Stuff I already touched on> Technically, we sort of still have a rotation difference pre-60, but that's like when every job is about as exciting as unsweatened oatmeal.

Am I missing a new craze here? I have always and will always eat unsweatened oatmeal. Sweatened Oatmeal sounds disgusting...

Also going to point out the core idea of BLM is also part of the core idea of RDM, which is bouncing between two opposites during a rotation. The only difference is the RDM system is much less clunky because they have instant casts that give them more mobility. The whole thing reminds me of the evolution of moonkin druids in WoW since both casters are like different generations of moonkin rotation. If we really want to talk about when the identity of blackmage was killed, it was when they released RDM in Stormblood. Unless we want to say that because they happen to rotate using different aesthetic abilities and a different gauge that somehow they are not a sea saw casting design done twice over.

It's not at all the same core idea, not even close. The core idea of BLM is about staying in your "strong" phase (Fire) as much as possible and make the best use of your time and MP while in that phase then switching to your weak phase to recuperate and staying it it as shortly as possible. The secondary core idea is positioning and dealing with movement. Using tools that you have to move when you need to but using positioning to move as little as possible.

The core idea of RDM is balance. It's about maintaining balance between the two mana to quickly charge up for a short but strong melee burst window before jumping back out and continuing to maintain balance. The secondary idea with RDM is surrounding Fast Cast; utilizing your slow weak spells to get a Fast Cast proc and then use that on long cast time spells that deal more damage. With some additional mechanics around your slow cast spells proccing a "less weak" fast casting spell.


Just because both have "two things" doesn't mean they are the same core idea. They are completely different things.

[Colt47]

Am I missing a new craze here? I have always and will always eat unsweatened oatmeal. Sweatened Oatmeal sounds disgusting...



It's not at all the same core idea, not even close. The core idea of BLM is about staying in your "strong" phase (Fire) as much as possible and make the best use of your time and MP while in that phase then switching to your weak phase to recuperate and staying it it as shortly as possible. The secondary core idea is positioning and dealing with movement. Using tools that you have to move when you need to but using positioning to move as little as possible.

The core idea of RDM is balance. It's about maintaining balance between the two mana to quickly charge up for a short but strong melee burst window before jumping back out and continuing to maintain balance. The secondary idea with RDM is surrounding Fast Cast; utilizing your slow weak spells to get a Fast Cast proc and then use that on long cast time spells that deal more damage. With some additional mechanics around your slow cast spells proccing a "less weak" fast casting spell.


Just because both have "two things" doesn't mean they are the same core idea. They are completely different things.

The core idea is going between two phases and they simply differentiate the usage of the phases, which is what I was talking about with the moonkin druid as the job went through similar designs going from expansion to expansion. The design difference between RDM and BLM is more so MP management. BLM wants to stay in fire as long as possible because that is when it is expending MP for more damage. Ice phase is the recovery phase of the sea saw and is just an active dps resting phase. RDM is the other sea saw design where it's about going back and forth rapidly to keep to energy meters roughly the same.

If that is merely the identity of the job, then it shouldn't even matter if they increased the cast speed on black mage to make it less clunky. A 3-4 second cast in this game is extremely long and punishing, which doesn't really fit the idea of "you can do better if you use this ability" that other casters have. Instead they get punished because most of the AOEs and attacks from monsters will complete at around 2 to 3 seconds.

Also leylines as a mobility tool is fine, just having it comboed as a haste buff and encouraging someone to stand in it to get more casts off is just like the 3-4 second cast problem where it encourages someone to eat attacks. Shorter cast times improve reactive gameplay without overcomplicating or making the job dependent upon skills they might not have until later, and makes the job a lot easier to test against new and old content since it should meet minimum mobility standards for most content.

[tearagion]

The core idea is going between two phases and they simply differentiate the usage of the phases, which is what I was talking about with the moonkin druid as the job went through similar designs going from expansion to expansion. The design difference between RDM and BLM is more so MP management. BLM wants to stay in fire as long as possible because that is when it is expending MP for more damage. Ice phase is the recovery phase of the sea saw and is just an active dps resting phase. RDM is the other sea saw design where it's about going back and forth rapidly to keep to energy meters roughly the same.

If that is merely the identity of the job, then it shouldn't even matter if they increased the cast speed on black mage to make it less clunky. A 3-4 second cast in this game is extremely long and punishing, which doesn't really fit the idea of "you can do better if you use this ability" that other casters have. Instead they get punished because most of the AOEs and attacks from monsters will complete at around 2 to 3 seconds.

Also leylines as a mobility tool is fine, just having it comboed as a haste buff and encouraging someone to stand in it to get more casts off is just like the 3-4 second cast problem where it encourages someone to eat attacks. Shorter cast times improve reactive gameplay without overcomplicating or making the job dependent upon skills they might not have until later, and makes the job a lot easier to test against new and old content since it should meet minimum mobility standards for most content.

BLM isn't clunky lol, you're just bad at it and/or not used to it. You might never be good at it and/or used to it. Get over it. You're so obstinate in wanting to make the best designed job worse that I'm convinced this is bait. Frankly in EW BLM has a little too much leeway in movement, two stacks of triplecast is excessive.

[Payotz]

The core idea is going between two phases and they simply differentiate the usage of the phases...

RDM doesn't have a phase because you're simply NOT locked out of spells. Hell, I can even say that Requiescat is even more of a phase than the "build meter phase", or "spend meter phase" that you're talking about, even if I don't really agree with the use.

When you're in your Astral Fire phase, you can't cast Blizzard 4, and if you cast blizzard 1, you drop enochian and lose AF.
If you hard cast Blizz 3 in AF 3, you actually cast almost instantly, because you're rewarded for actually rewarded for executing your AF phase correctly.

This is the same for AF 3.

In FACT, the ONLY hard cast I can see that's "long" is Flare. Most of your single target spells are nowhere NEAR 3 seconds if you actually do your phases correctly, OR you can actually account for it depending on your lines.

If that is merely the identity of the job, then it shouldn't even matter if they increased the cast speed on black mage to make it less clunky

Changing the cast times DOES though. Faster cast times are literally a reward for executing your lines correctly, and you can account for how slow or how fast your next spell is in a moment to moment basis.
It's not clunky because the job literally gives you tools and allows decision making around the "long cast bars".

Look at this scenario. You're preparing for a mechanic, let's say wrymholes. Do you:

skip Blizzard 3. This results in your next Fire 3 cast to be way slower than what if you actually did standard, but you're have more PPS. But, you can circumvent the long Fire 3 cast by using a Swiftcast OR by forcing a Fire 3 proc during the previous Fire phase.
don't skip Blizzard 3 and Blizzard 4. This results in a faster Fire 3 cast that allows you to weave in Triple cast so you can circumvent the Fire 4s for the next mechanic, but this also lowers your PPS because you have to cast Paradox in your Fire Phase

See how much cast times are woven in that decision making? There's a risk reward analysis in every aspect of BLM, including cast times.
The "long cast times" that BLM has isn't as brainless as your Ifrit long cast times, or your prepull Veraero cast times. It actually factors into the decision making of the job, during the rotation.

Changing those cast times in a way that, in your words "to not be clunky", removes that risk-reward and decision making factor of the job.
It honestly even removes the build diversity it has. BLM is one of the few jobs that actually don't just randomly slot in Crt > DH >= Det.

If you think you can handle slower than usual cast times, then go for High Crit low SpS. You get more variance in DPS, but you get bigger Crit DH numbers.
If you wanna be more consistent, then go for High SPS, high DH. You don't get bigger crits, hell you probably won't crit ever, but your DH will make the damage variance a lot more stable, and you get to throw more potency down lane.

If you can't understand the job, and view decision making as clunky job design, then I suggest playing Physical Ranged, cause again, this job is not for you chief.