alright folks i'll settle on a compromise for job uniqueness or a trial run if u will

[pikalovr]

i got to thinking bout it, and it would be extremely cool if we got advanced versions of each job. so people could actually see what a "harder" more complex unique job system would look like. make them levels 1-50 and let people do level 1-50 content with them and group up with other advanced job users. you would be learning advanced versions of jobs and some newer more complex jobs from each city state leader

dual wielding greatswords like a berserker job learned from raubahn. after we get the sultana to make him teach us ofc. basically alot more emphasis on harder hitting combo finishers and multihits (prolly an advanced WAR job most likely)

merlywb teaching us that old dogs can know new tricks with dualwield pistols/other more piratey skills like throwing out an explosive barrel that explodes after a set time. the pirate job

Kan-E-Senna teaching us about how to be an elementalist job making full use of the elementals and the elements themselves. more emphasis on debuffs and buffing and would still be primarily the main healing job. think advanced WHM.

aymeric could teach us how to be an even better shield for our allies and protect them from everything the guardian job. basically advanced PLD. but a real caster tank no melee just hard hitting holy spells and more long range support spells. if we wanted to get wacky it could be a dual shield job as well

lyse could teach the ways of the ala mighan fist the abbot job. a play on real life monks where abbots were basically the head monk. also yes rhalgr would prolly intervene since we know about them now hence why you're able to push your limits past that of a normal monk. with more emphasis on meditation channeling combos, and hard hitting single punches, and summoning giant fists to unleash devastating combo finishers

vrtra could teach us how to further our progress with the dragon inside us the azure dragoon job. the reference should be self explanatory. with more emphasis on using aetherial claws and jaws summoned from the tips of our spears and maybe a bit of fire breathing as well idk.

for crystarium we would learn from Lyna how to be more wild and creative with our dance moves in combat the entertainer job. honestly i wouldn't mind learning skills like we seen in that one DNC job quest when we were learning DNC and she was pulling out all sorts of crazy moves. thanks to the wild and unpredictable nature of this "wild" dancing every hit has a chance to unleash a different elemental hit on an enemy (debuff or DoT). and instead of being forced to follow a rythym or pattern while you fight each GCD leads up to a dance finisher. think like mudras or PB on MNK but all the time.

eulmore we would learn the engineer job from chai-nuzz. think a more advanced MCH but with more emphasis on turrets and machines. a less active playstyle and more so like a minion job so to speak where you actively control each contraption. and prolly have an ability to have them all forge together to make a mech that you can hop in for their burst window,

sharlyan is still a toss up but i think the twins dad Fourchenault Leveilleur would be our teacher. now ik they wouldn't wanna do an advanced SGE so i was prolly expecting him to be an advanced SMN/SCH teacher. idk a good name for the job sorry. learning under him we are able to summon multiple egis at once and access more devastating comboes based around the ones summoned. so if we have leviathan and ifrit together we get a fire spell and water spell that after using them they come together to give us scalding steam our big summon finisher then the egis dissipate and we have to summon new egis.

[pikalovr]

so i thought about it and i think we should really do this and it works perfectly cause we have a perfect 8 man comp already

Berserker and guardian tanks
elementalist and the upgraded SCH healers
abbot and the azure dragoon melee DPS
entertainer and pirate ranged phys
upgraded SMN caster
engineer (more of a unique job not exactly sure where'd i put him tbh prolly under caster just so it's 2/2/2/2/2)

[Kes13a]

given that people complain about the jobs now, some that they are too hard (likely boosters) and others that they are not hard enough, people not even wearing their job crystals etc... I cant see this working out or being implemented.

interesting ideas, probably wouldnt break things TOO badly.. but pass. rather they fix what is out there now instead of shoehorning in 9 more jobs, thus diluting EVERYONES uniqueness because of skill "borrowing"

[pikalovr]

given that people complain about the jobs now, some that they are too hard (likely boosters) and others that they are not hard enough, people not even wearing their job crystals etc... I cant see this working out or being implemented.

interesting ideas, probably wouldnt break things TOO badly.. but pass. rather they fix what is out there now instead of shoehorning in 9 more jobs, thus diluting EVERYONES uniqueness because of skill "borrowing"

the problem is the only examples of jobs being unique/very different from one another is back in HW/SB which had it's own problems outside of jobs that was being ignored. slashing piercing blunt damage being one of them and fight design in general. this is why this would be a trial run only going up to like level 50 or hell just start them at level 50 and advanced versions of each job allowing them to pull abilities or mechanics from their base jobs which saves on development.

the problem with saying people say it's too hard is we literally still have people who think they should steamroll level 90 trials for MSQ LEVEL 90 TRIALS. they just don't want to put in any amount of effort is what it is it's not jobs being hard. (also before people come here and try to say jobs hard please do explain how WAR is hard go ahead)

the reason for this existing is so we have some sort of in game example of how a more complex combat system would work in this game. so we have something we can CURRENTLY pull from instead of going "well back in HW the jobs weren't done well so it'll never work"

[RitsukoSonoda]

the problem is the only examples of jobs being unique/very different from one another is back in HW/SB which had it's own problems outside of jobs that was being ignored. slashing piercing blunt damage being one of them and fight design in general. this is why this would be a trial run only going up to like level 50 or hell just start them at level 50 and advanced versions of each job allowing them to pull abilities or mechanics from their base jobs which saves on development.

the problem with saying people say it's too hard is we literally still have people who think they should steamroll level 90 trials for MSQ LEVEL 90 TRIALS. they just don't want to put in any amount of effort is what it is it's not jobs being hard. (also before people come here and try to say jobs hard please do explain how WAR is hard go ahead)

the reason for this existing is so we have some sort of in game example of how a more complex combat system would work in this game. so we have something we can CURRENTLY pull from instead of going "well back in HW the jobs weren't done well so it'll never work"

Given that the game has pretty much just had more RPG elements trimmed and removed over the years without them really adding anything back. I'd pitch this as a direction to consider on the next FF MMORPG which hopefully will actually be an RPG from a mechanical standpoint. Where damage being physical or magical matters, where your weapon dealing slashing, blunt, or piercing damage matters, where elemental affinities matter, where gear can actually be interesting with set effects, added effects, skill bonuses instead of just being a matter of equipping whatever shows green numbers on the stat comparison, where every job/class has their own chance to shine because of how varied the monsters/enemies/encounters are rather than trying to make everyone the same on everything.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

Dont get me wrong...I actually like these ideas you have listed...but at the same time these would just be better as either new jobs, or just level 90-100+ evolution and them bringing back Job Quests.
I would personally love to see Job Quests make a return, it was fun extra content and a motivator to level the jobs.

And I agree with Kes13a...it would be a better idea, and I would rather they Fix what we already have. I honestly think we dont need more jobs, or at least take a 1 Expansion Hiatus from making a new job, and focus on job improvements. Focus on bringing back Job Identity for instance, and implement these ideas to freshen up and even change up the jobs abit.
Even make more use of these Gauges.
I like them, but they arn't being used to their full potential.

[pikalovr]

Given that the game has pretty much just had more RPG elements trimmed and removed over the years without them really adding anything back. I'd pitch this as a direction to consider on the next FF MMORPG which hopefully will actually be an RPG from a mechanical standpoint. Where damage being physical or magical matters, where your weapon dealing slashing, blunt, or piercing damage matters, where elemental affinities matter, where gear can actually be interesting with set effects, added effects, skill bonuses instead of just being a matter of equipping whatever shows green numbers on the stat comparison, where every job/class has their own chance to shine because of how varied the monsters/enemies/encounters are rather than trying to make everyone the same on everything.

but the issue is if we do take what yoshi-p said at face value we prolly won't see another FF MMORPG for 10 more years. since he'll be keeping ffxiv up and running and making it. which is why it's important we start adding those RPG mechanics and elements back into a MMORPG. i'm not even asking for POE levels of complexity here just something anything.

[RitsukoSonoda]

but the issue is if we do take what yoshi-p said at face value we prolly won't see another FF MMORPG for 10 more years. since he'll be keeping ffxiv up and running and making it. which is why it's important we start adding those RPG mechanics and elements back into a MMORPG. i'm not even asking for POE levels of complexity here just something anything.

FFXI is still going after 20 years and still got content updates after FFXIV launched. Keeping FFXIV going doesn't mean they can't launch another MMORPG in the title line if they finally decide to pull the plug on FFXI. Ppl still paying a sub to play FFXI and keep it going IMO means a noticeable amount of people like the RPG mechanical aspects of the title and enjoy it regardless of how dated it is having originally being a PS2/PC title.

The issue I see with this title is that it's already attracted too many people with the "no, game needs to be visual novel difficulty" mindset that anything adding even the tiniest bit of complexity to the game will result in that small group of players doing the equivalent of that kid screaming at the top of their lungs non stop in a store because they were told they couldn't have a cookie. Hence why I'd suggest adding it via a clean slate where expectations can be reset since it would be a different title.

[Gemina]

Given that the game has pretty much just had more RPG elements trimmed and removed over the years without them really adding anything back. I'd pitch this as a direction to consider on the next FF MMORPG which hopefully will actually be an RPG from a mechanical standpoint. Where damage being physical or magical matters, where your weapon dealing slashing, blunt, or piercing damage matters, where elemental affinities matter, where gear can actually be interesting with set effects, added effects, skill bonuses instead of just being a matter of equipping whatever shows green numbers on the stat comparison, where every job/class has their own chance to shine because of how varied the monsters/enemies/encounters are rather than trying to make everyone the same on everything.

This is fine for a single player game, wherein these variables only need to be designed and programmed once. FFXIV used to contain many of these elements, and the fact they went away from it should tell you something.

In an mmo that is constantly churning out content, this is unrealistic. It's what I call "dot shading", and while effective, it is not very practical. Due to the size of the game today, and the increasing demand from the playerbase, this method also isn't realistic, or logically sound.

Tl;Dr? Expect even more simplification. Not the opposite.

[RitsukoSonoda]

snip

FFXIV actually was either missing these elements or had them reduced to the point of them being pretty much moot from the start and there are larger MMO's that have all these variables. Many which existed before FFXIV and still run today.

The issue that hit FFXIV is that a decision was made to chase the delusion that a game could be made for "everyone". There is no game that exists both online and offline that will appeal to "everyone". In their pursuit to try and appeal to "everyone" they've been systematically removing as much as possible to reduce thought input by players which has essentially made the game just MMO and no longer RPG and now a very sizable amount of the player base are players that don't play actual RPGs.

Claiming that having actual RPG variables in an online game is unrealistic shows a lack of vision and thought on the matter.

Expecting these to be added to FFXIV however would be unrealistic as it would require the entire game be overhauled again from the ground up as some jobs would require a complete rebuild from scratch and would be met by all matter of complaining from players that cannot handle the additional variables and/or the freedom it would bring for character build. As for the whole "meta" excuse. "Meta" is a player base problem. Not an issue with a game so long as the game developer doesn't make the mistake many in the past have done on multiple offline and online titles of creating content with the expectation of challenging "meta" players. One example that comes to mind is Borderlands 2 which gearbox went to overtuning enemies on Ultimate Vault Hunter Mode and OP levels because they wanted the small number of players using broken OP "meta" builds to be challenged and essentially made everything that wasn't a broken OP "meta" build either unusable in that content or able to do the content but take half an hour to kill 1 fodder enemy. Discrimination online for being "meta" or "non-meta" is a problem of the online community in MMORPGs however you'll find the ones that actually care about any of that to be a small minority which will eventually just play exclusively with their group away from everyone else. It's not like League of Legends where all 9 other players filed reports against me every time I chose a champion that wasn't one of the 2-3 they wanted for the role or lane I was playing regardless of the fact I facerolled the other team with it. Despite having one of the highest negative report counts on there I never once received any disciplinary action from Riot because it was literally all just butthurt "meta" players claiming that I wasn't playing ranked seriously or trolling on it while the in game performance said the exact opposite.

In the end the only Meta I care about is Meta Knight because he's awesome and I've always liked his character design even though he's also kinda broken in Smash so I don't use him there much.