Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

[EaraGrace]

If the ancients live as long as the Ea will, with no other way to die except suicide, yes. it is a perfectly logical choice to make, being alive is a choice, not a virtue.

Really, what else are they supposed to do? The best option they have, by far, is death. Whether it happens now or eventually doesn't really matter when we have no idea how old they are already.

The Ea as individuals can choose as they wish. As a collective however deciding that life isn’t worth living for any future generations is the failure. Their children can be mortal, and informed by their mistakes can blaze a better path.

I think you're missing my point here. The sundered are not on an alternate path, they are just much much less advanced than the Ea. The Ea did not fail somehow, they weren't conquered, they had a strong drive to fight for scientific progress and a better understanding of the universe, and their reward was a guarantee that their lives would eventually become nightmarish if they allowed themselves to live on.

Then don’t live that long, and celebrate the life you did have. The Sundered now have a universes wealth of examples of what not to do. They can find their way.

The horror of their fate is that they did everything right. the only way to avoid a similar fate is to refuse fixing much about your life, and to not care about understanding the universe. Their dead end is a near inevitability.

Many species did everything right, that’s Meteions point in her argument. It does not change the answer however, that one still can find a reason to keep going even if faced with that inevitability.

It's not really comparable to death, they're already showing that many of them were willing to die. Even less comparable to death considering reincarnation is somewhat of a thing in this universe, we don't really have to fear what comes after. It's more similar to someone seeing everything they love die or be destroyed, and then being locked in a sensory isolation tank for the rest of their lives, with no hope to change this (though at least they'll die eventually).

I think many fear what comes after, why else would the Ancients be so horrified by the Final Days? Even just losing who you were is agony.

The omega stuff allowing us to say that none of the three ancients were justified in their actions is the closest we're going to get to a realistic take on the topic.

I did have more typed up in reply for this, but I completely forgot to send it, so just gonna post this part.

I respect your take but disagree.

What happened to Minfilia was basically entrapment. You know, just trust the inscrutable voice in your head as you've always trusted (for no discernible reason)...aaaand now you'll "live" and die as her puppet or you'll just die in the lifestream achieving nothing and helping no one as your soul gets reduced to nothingness. It makes me sick just thinking about it again. Everyone who's dealt with Hydaelyn has met with a terrible fate, one way or another, whether they were against her or her allies. I'm so glad that monster is dead.

Guess it’s trolling hours again.

[Iscah]

The Ea as individuals can choose as they wish. As a collective however deciding that life isn’t worth living for any future generations is the failure. Their children can be mortal, and informed by their mistakes can blaze a better path.

I don't think the Ea can have children. They collectively abandoned their bodies and became immortal energy beings.

Maybe some didn't, and continued to live normal lives, and the race became extinct eons ago while the immortal ones lived on.

[EaraGrace]

I don't think the Ea can have children. They collectively abandoned their bodies and became immortal energy beings.

Maybe some didn't, and continued to live normal lives, and the race became extinct eons ago while the immortal ones lived on.

I’m sure they could find a way to make reproduction in some form a possibility again. If any species could its them.

And based on the fact that both the Omicrons and the Dragons both had schisms, I’m sure the Ea had theirs as well. What exactly happened to them would be cool to know.

[Theodric]

Guess it’s trolling hours again.

Huh? How so? A decent amount of posters have always found Minfilia's fate to be pretty alarming - even some of us who didn't particularly care for her as a character.

Furthermore, simply disliking or voicing displeasure towards Venat does not equal 'trolling'.

[EaraGrace]

Huh? How so? A decent amount of posters have always found Minfilia's fate to be pretty alarming - even some of us who didn't particularly care for her as a character.

Furthermore, simply disliking or voicing displeasure towards Venat does not equal 'trolling'.

Because it’s a complete strawman of Minfilia and Venats actions and the reasons behind it. Hydaelyn was nearly dry of aether and called out to a noted ally for aid who made clear time and time again she wanted to help. There’s nothing indicating that Minfilia wished to not be the Word of the Mother or that she was going to die if she didn’t say yes, and it’s made clear that her decision were her own. The game explicitly says she did so because she wished to.

And that post wasn’t just voicing disagreement or displeasure. It’s just trying to piss people off.

[Theodric]

I wouldn't consider it to be a 'strawman'. Each and every single one of Venat's victories are built upon the demise of other people. The vast majority of them completely without consent at that. To say nothing of the artwork for the patch where Minfilia's fate was first revealed:



Furthermore, people are perfectly free to come to their own conclusions regardless particular characters - especially if their actions are controversial.

[AwesomeJr44]

Hydaelyn was nearly dry of aether and called out to a noted ally for aid who made clear time and time again she wanted to help.

Hydaelyn in Lore:


Hydaelyn in Reality:


(Hydaelyn unironically stole Palpatine's playbook)

Did you both just forget the parts where she willingly got caught up in flow and agreed to become the word of the mother? Did you both both forget that she willingly let her soul be consumed by Ryne's. Of course you both forgot the part about Venat bringing her soul back to the Source so she can be reincarnated there. Slipped your minds.

Gonna respond to you just cause I know it'll make you mad Oatmeal

[LordGiggles]

The Ea as individuals can choose as they wish. As a collective however deciding that life isn’t worth living for any future generations is the failure. Their children can be mortal, and informed by their mistakes can blaze a better path.

Their unborn children don't actually exist, and nobody is obliged to reproduce if they don't want to (assuming the Ea even can). They are, as individuals, choosing as they wish.

Many species did everything right, that’s Meteions point in her argument. It does not change the answer however, that one still can find a reason to keep going even if faced with that inevitability.

This reason being? Why should they have to live in effectively unending torment, adrift in a universe that is entirely dead? Sure, they could hang around and kill themselves later on, but what's the point if nothing is going to actually change in the meantime? It's easy to talk about finding a way or choosing a different path, but it's not worth much without saying what that is, or how it avoids all the other dead ends.

I would love to see more about what happened between them reaching the conclusion they did and reaching the state they're in at the moment though, I think it's the most interesting of the dead ends we saw.

The 'heat death' of the universe that's being referenced here as a 'popular science concept' is not a cataclysmic event.

Not quoting the full message for reply size purposes, but this is pretty misleading. It's not a literal immediate apocalypse, but for a being that cannot die outside extremely specific mechanisms, the inevitable end of all things is absolutely equivalent to a cataclysmic event. It's an ongoing succession of cataclysms over an enormous period of time, assuming it does indeed occur in this universe, which we have no reason to believe otherwise.

As for your interpretation of the philosophical question being asked, this "And the resolution to this conflict is in Y'shtola's response. It's about the journey." does not at all work as a counter. How do you think the Ea got to this state in the first place?

The Ea are in a situation where they are permanent in a universe where effectively everything else is not. If you don't follow the path they have, you're eventually going to succumb to another fate. If you're not supposed to follow the aforementioned journey to its end, and not supposed to push too hard to improve your life, how are you any better than any of the innumerable other civilisations that wiped themselves out over time? What do you do when the problems you're allowed to solve are all solved? How do you stop people trying to solve them anyway?

Nihilism is not a sustainable philosophical stance. It's just a temporary place, a bus stop for lost souls.

I don't think that you believe this, it's a nice sounding quote but it's clearly not true. "Sustainability" is also pretty irrelevant to topics surrounding existentialism. Philosophy isn't designed around making people feel good, and there's nothing within nihilism that stops them from doing so in the first place.

And I do agree regarding the hive mind aspect, but it's not super applicable to the Ea, we see and hear of some very different reactions they have. The dragons are pretty bad this way though, guess it's just a limitation of trying to show several radically different outcomes in a single zone?

[Lyth]

That's not what the Ea are saying, though. Let's have a closer look.

'If you understand this - understand aught of our tale - you will abandon your quest for knowledge. Ignorance is truly bliss. If you would cling to your illusory happiness, remain primitive and pure. It is the only way.'

The Ea believe that if they hadn't have discovered the truth, they could have been happy. The central ideal around which they built their society on was the pursuit of knowledge. Their despair was that their ideal was meaningless.

And Y'shtola's counterpoint to that is:

'As you yourself said, the subject matter is beyond my comprehension. And that, I accept, is true. I do not possess the knowledge to prove or disprove your conclusion. In my mortal years, I doubt that I could even approach the wisdom of the Ea. But of one thing I am absolutely certain: I would not be happier in ignorance.

The most important lesson I've learned... is that learning isn't simply passing one's eyes over words. Nay... 'tis when understood for oneself that knowledge attains its true value. And that is what has sustained me. Driven me onward in joy and wonder, in anger and sorrow. The universe may end, and may all be for naught. But I will live as I always have.

I will always seek out new knowledge. And no conclusion of yours, no matter how grim, can dampen my desire.'

And this latter point personally resonates with me.

I find it strange that you'd hold an opinion at all about what any of my beliefs are. Existentialism and Nihilism do force us to confront some interesting questions and assumptions about our belief systems. But you can always find the answers for yourself.

[LordGiggles]

[I]'As you yourself said, the subject matter is beyond my comprehension. And that, I accept, is true. I do not possess the knowledge to prove or disprove your conclusion. In my mortal years, I doubt that I could even approach the wisdom of the Ea. But of one thing I am absolutely certain: I would not be happier in ignorance.

The most important lesson I've learned... is that learning isn't simply passing one's eyes over words. Nay... 'tis when understood for oneself that knowledge attains its true value. And that is what has sustained me. Driven me onward in joy and wonder, in anger and sorrow. The universe may end, and may all be for naught. But I will live as I always have.

Yes, and this does not work as a counter, because they have already spent almost certainly a huge, huge amount of time living as they always had, driving onwards to find out more about the universe and reality. It's the entire reason they're in the state they are, they didn't just pop into reality with an understanding of the universe so incredibly more advanced than any other species we see or even hear of.

Y'shtola saying that she's just going to keep being curious anyway is really easy to say when she'll almost certainly be dead within the next century, and has no actual reason to care about the end of the universe. Like she's what, 30? Forgive me if I don't think "well I still want to know stuff though" is a particularly compelling argument against a race of beings that already know more than anyone we've seen, and that will live on forever.

She's really just not even trying to understand the difference between the sundered and the Ea, despite saying she knows she'll never come even close to their wisdom.

"The universe may end, and may all be for naught." has an extremely different impact when you will personally exist and live on beyond the end of the universe, compared to a situation where you could multiply your expected lifespan by a million and still never come close to seeing it. There's just not really much of an argument in this quote at all, it's barely more than a "nuh uh".

I find it strange that you'd hold an opinion at all about what any of my beliefs are. Existentialism and Nihilism do force us to confront some interesting questions and assumptions about our belief systems. But you can always find the answers for yourself.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, that you don't actually think a belief we've seen people hold across hundreds and hundreds of years and that is an incredibly influential one in any discussion of existential topics, is somehow not sustainable. It's not really something that is influenced by how people feel about it, it's either correct or it is not (of course nihilism isn't a single claim or argument, but I'm being reductionist for etiquette reasons). With regards to existential nihilism in particular, life either has an intrinsic meaning or it doesn't. Finding your own reason to go on doesn't go against any of this really.