This frequency of English localization issues is unacceptable

[OgruMogru]

tfw English-speaking children actually watched this and thought that onigiri were just Japanese doughnuts.

Americans still don't get it right because it should be jam.

[MikkoAkure]

It's still done to appease a Japanese audience first and foremost. Using an obvious parody of English text for their fictional in-universe text, the use of songs with lyrics that are in English does not really change that. The game, from conception to production, is innately Japanese and designed primarily for the entertainment of a Japanese audience.

This is an MMO that is made to market a global audience. In the interview with the localizers, Square-Enix themselves have said FFXIV is "a title aimed at a global audience". Unlike other single-player JRPGs or anime, non-Japanese players aren't some satellite demographic that they considered to be a bonus to their main target audience. Everything is developed with everyone in mind. And again, the head localizer for the English version was the one who wrote and even sang many of the songs in the game and less than a handful aren't in English no matter which version you play.

The localization teams are also directly involved with the devs in the making of the game as a whole:

The English team is actively involved in naming of skills and location names, etc. and the wider localization team is invited to provide ideas and concepts for new creatures from their various cultures. Then there are situations where we do culture checks and flag potential issues in the story to avoid misunderstandings or to cater to contemporary cultural developments.

I do often provide ideas for names we could use for in-game terms, bosses, attacks, NPCs, places, titles, and things like that based on parameters from the team.

Probably because he never said that, and that it's just something people probably made up and something Westerners take as fact (for whatever reason).
I don't doubt that he had his staff screen Game of Thrones, that's actually what I'd imagine a game developer would do, since that's really just the type of research many game devs go through.

But it's still a Japanese product designed for a Japanese audience.

Now, moving on…ah, yes. English voices! Do try playing with English voices on a second playthrough, perhaps. I have a feeling that you can really appreciate the realism conveyed by the English voices.

https://noisypixel.net/final-fantasy...nese-lip-sync/

And that the game was designed for English:

The Japanese audience critiqued the title’s lack of proper lip sync for their language since Final Fantasy XVI’s development utilized the English dub at its core. The staff replied that they could not make it work since the facial movements are based on facial capture data with those who performed the English dub.

As for Game of Thrones:

If we want to create something that has that kind of western feel, we have to look to the west for that kind of inspiration. And so things like Game of Thrones are things that we look to because that type of stuff does not exist where we live in Japan.

[MikkoAkure]

I skimmed through it, it really doesn't say that this is 'the only way to do it'. Do you have a time-code where they explicitly state this?


A faithful translation doesn't disrespect the source material by assuming that the audience wouldn't be as entertained.
Trying to dismiss people who take issue with this as 'pedants' who know full-well that what they're reading isn't what was initially written, or what was canon, or what was censored outright (as is the case with the Haurchefant debacle) is nothing but an insult.

People want to know that what they're reading is faithful to and in-line with what it actually is, because things like artistic and literary integrity ultimately are what ground the product in its entirety. Calling them 'artless' is just baseless.

Then read Koji's interview when he talks about localization:
https://we-are-vanadiel.finalfantasyxi.com/post/?id=632

For the most part, non-Japanese players will never see the original story that was written in Japanese; in other words, whether or not the Japanese version of the story is interesting is irrelevant to them. Their evaluation will be based on the translated version, so there’s no point in having a translation if it isn’t entertaining. Most importantly, the scenes that left an impression in the Japanese version have to be translated to impress the players who are playing the English version instead.
[...]
When I was first hired, my translations were very faithful to the original, so if someone were to translate my English back into Japanese, they would end up with original Japanese text. But when a translation has phrases that aren’t used in English, the players won’t understand what you’re trying to convey. Translators need to consider the intentions behind the words, or the emotions won’t be conveyed to the players at all.
[...]
I’d like to believe that our translations managed to preserve the message behind the stories, and that they’re just as dramatic and emotional as the original Japanese. When I was translating for FFXI, I tried to convey emotions and the true message as naturally as possible, even if I ended up ignoring the grammar or sentence structure of the original text to some extent. I’ve maintained that outlook on translation since then, even after moving on to other projects.

If the text not being 1-to-1 bothers you, nothing's stopping you from learning Japanese.

[Jeeqbit]

I skimmed through it, it really doesn't say that this is 'the only way to do it'. Do you have a time-code where they explicitly state this?

https://www.youtube.com/live/YozopuVW8Mo?t=25974

There is a lot of stuff before that timepoint that is relevant, but she repeats a lot of it after that timepoint too.

[Telkira]

This is an MMO that is made to market a global audience. In the interview with the localizers, Square-Enix themselves have said FFXIV is "a title aimed at a global audience". Unlike other single-player JRPGs or anime, non-Japanese players aren't some satellite demographic that they considered to be a bonus to their main target audience. Everything is developed with everyone in mind.

The localizers are not SE's development/writing team as a whole. Everything they do still has to be given the approval of the core production team. Having localizers contribute as much as they have is not unusual for game development, and trying to overstate this fact as a way to argue that the game is not 'JP First' is just dishonest.

FFXIV is most certainly a Japanese product first and foremost. The reality is that non-Japanese players are exactly what you said they weren't, which is a bonus. The game would not exist in the state that it is in without the support of their native market, which is impossible to ignore from an end-user perspective.

Originally Posted by Naoki Yoshida speaking to Japanese audience

I concede that he asked that Japanese players do a second play-through in English, but it's still a game designed with a Japanese audience in mind, but if by chance it lives up to the 'global audiences' intention, then hopefully SE will be able to pivot with whatever their next project is, otherwise they will risk losing much, much more than a few sales, which is probably why it did so poor in terms of both Japanese sales and worldwide sales.

The Japanese audience critiqued the title’s lack of proper lip sync...performed the English dub.

I strongly identify with the Japanese complaints against not having proper lip sync support for what is objectively their target demographic and most accessible language option, but I guess that's Square's bed and they've gotta lay in it.

I hope they'll put forth the effort to do proper facial animations for their native demographic, or use this as an incentive to at least translate the spoken language into a textual form, that way what's being heard lines up more closely with what's being read.

As for Game of Thrones:
Quote Originally Posted by FFXVI art director Hiroshi Minagawa

This doesn't really mean anything, and I said that I would have expected them to screen Game of Thrones to familiarize themselves with the medieval, grim and dark themes and all that which is something that they wanted to capture for FFXVI. Ghosts of Tsushima was developed by an American game studio (Sucker Punch Prod.) and is set in ancient Japan, but the game is primarily designed for a Western audience with Sony (a Japanese company) acting as the global publisher.

[Boblawblah]

Why is it always that some people can't be bothered to actually learn Japanese, but instead spend their time getting angry at the Japanese who decide to make the English version more culturally friendly to the West?

Want the Japanese version? Learn Japanese. And you should probably live in Japan for a few decades to start to understand their culture, because culture will play a big part in understanding exactly what the Japanese version is conveying.

[Fawkes]

Why is it always that some people can't be bothered to actually learn Japanese, but instead spend their time getting angry at the Japanese who decide to make the English version more culturally friendly to the West?

Want the Japanese version? Learn Japanese. And you should probably live in Japan for a few decades to start to understand their culture, because culture will play a big part in understanding exactly what the Japanese version is conveying.

[Telkira]

Then read Koji's interview when he talks about localization:

Their evaluation will be based on the translated version, so there’s no point in having a translation if it isn’t entertaining.

See, this right here is exactly why I feel like FFXIV would have been a better game without his implementation of this philosophy, and is why so many discrepancies have been identified and called out with regard to the English script of this game.

He deliberately casts aside the role of a translator/localizer, which is to adapt the content of something in a foreign language as faithfully as possible, to becoming an outright revisionist (and censor), while robbing players of their right to determine for themselves what is valid and entertaining.
It represents a disheartening and annoying lack of faith in the source material's quality and ability to impress/entertain an audience, while insulting the player by assuming they would view it with the same lack of interest that he may have.

None of this would be an issue if they just gave players a second set of text to go off of which would exist in the form of a faithful translation. It's not his place to deviate so harshly from the original script with the intention of entertaining a Western audience.
Preserving what was initially intended for the Japanese audience would have left just as much of a favorable impression as the English one but with fewer issues.

I’d like to believe that our translations managed to preserve the message behind the stories, and that they’re just as dramatic and emotional as the original Japanese. When I was translating for FFXI, I tried to convey emotions and the true message as naturally as possible, even if I ended up ignoring the grammar or sentence structure of the original text to some extent. I’ve maintained that outlook on translation since then, even after moving on to other projects.

I think accuracy goes hand-in-hand with preserving things like emotion, tone, sentiment, etc. Liberties are best taken in situations where certain things literally will not translate at all, then the use of linguistic analogs and other devices can be justified by the plain and apparent context. This is literally translation 101, because you're not just preserving the communication of what's being said, but the utterance of who is saying it.
There are heaps of nuance and subjectivity to be felt/observed when that is maintained, regardless of what language is being spoken, and of course some (or a lot) of that nuance will be lost in translation, but that's not an excuse to substitute that nuance for what someone believes would be more entertaining just because they think it would be familiar to that audience. That feels like pandering, especially when there are mood and tonal discrepancies between what's being said/spoken and what's going on in the game world. It's palpable.

[OgruMogru]

It's not his place to deviate so harshly from the original script with the intention of entertaining a Western audience.

It is his place! He's literally paid to do it you pedantic, artless weeb lmaoooo

[Telkira]

omg this whole post has genuine reddit energy.

Why is it always that some people can't be bothered to actually learn Japanese, but instead spend their time getting angry at the Japanese who decide to make the English version more culturally friendly to the West?

Because I don't play Japanese games, watch Japanese cartoons, read Japanese comics, or listen to Japanese music to be exposed to Western concepts or media. I'd probably go back to playing World of Warcraft or pick up LOTRO or something if I wanted to experience something that was tailored specifically towards that audience.

There's a lot to learn from experiencing foreign media in a state that is faithfully translated.
It introduces foreign readers to new concepts and cultures, and invites a level of broader understanding and media literacy that actually allows consumers to bond and grow from these shared experiences, even if many within that foreign culture won't experience it the same as someone native to that content, or even a foreigner with more experience with it, would.

It's why I always recommend people watch subbed anime, because at least you're invited to learn something, not just be entertained by subpar voice acting and awkwardly-timed animations and modified pacing. This isn't a thread about subtitled/dubbed anime, but concept applies here just the same.

Want the Japanese version? Learn Japanese. And you should probably live in Japan for a few decades to start to understand their culture, because culture will play a big part in understanding exactly what the Japanese version is conveying.

This is an extremely bad take, even for someone like you whose response to criticisms of the English adaptation of the game's content is a two-word rhetorical response.
Not everyone has the time, resources, or the energy to take up learning one of the most difficult and complex languages out there.

I'll admit it would be far more ideal to just enjoy this content in its native language so I don't have to deal with arguing over people who genuinely think/act like you do would be a bonus. I'd have that much less to complain about.