This frequency of English localization issues is unacceptable

[Jeeqbit]

Also, I've never found any sentence or statement that actually addressed these arguments. I've skimmed the Fanfest three times already just to gauge what they said, and there wasn't much that they said which wasn't already public knowledge.

It felt like a lot of it was a direct response to things she hears all the time. Like, if you watched the whole thing rather than skimming it, she gives an impression that people say this, that and the other all the time, such as "some people think 1 person does all the translating" and repeatedly addressing why it is just their interpretation, how it's not a direct translation, why it's not a direct translation but how they talk to the writers directly and ask them over and over about the emotions they are trying to convey and the information they are trying to convey, so that the version they write for the English audience is conveying the same emotions, intent and information that the writers see as important for what they are telling.

If you didn't get that from skimming it then it is probably because of skimming it. One of the things you can do to reduce 60 minutes to 30 minutes is to set youtube's play speed to 2x. 30 minutes is a lot easier to listen to.

[Lunaxia]

This is a cop-out answer or response. SE's broader business interests are far beyond anything I'm qualified to comment on

Then perhaps don't comment when you don't actually know anything about it. "Substantial", lol.

It's a comedic archetype that has existed

Sexual harassment isn't funny, and it was never really was funny to anyone else to begin with except for ardent anime fans who place Japanese culture on a pedestal, and no translation is ever lacking for its omission. It's an unfortunate fact of reality and making light of it only benefits its perpetrators by purporting disturbing and unwanted behaviour as harmless. It's thankfully become an awkward and outdated mode of comedy that is now on the outs in the West, and hopefully in time it will on the JP side too. I suggest accepting that and moving on.

These 'various movements' have no place policing the contents of fictional video game worlds. They're no different than PETA making parody Pokemon games that compare the franchise with real-life animal bloodsport, or the Red Cross trying to get video games to follow the Geneva Convention protocols. They only serve to discredit and annoy, rather than actually influence positive changes that address real-world harms.

It's not "movements policing content in video games", it's a general shift in cultural and societal values brought on by these movements that will of course have lasting effects on popular media. SE understands this, they want their games to sell, and so they choose to adhere to that in lieu of potentially sinking an entire game over stale and offensive jokes to please an imaginary minority who think they're being deprived of quality content by not reading about a character drooling over "bulging muscles" and "glistening bodies." Consumers want a game that is well-written, entertaining and aligns with their values, gaming companies want to sell games and make money. Everyone wins.

then people like you probably wouldn't be here

You're right! Because this entire argument would never exist in the first place if people like you bothered to pick up a textbook and actually see what they're not missing, and might even begin to appreciate the amount of time and effort that goes into delivering the work the localisation team does.

Again, if you don't like it, learn it. It's not that hard, and you can revel in the original text to your heart's content without a translator's filthy English words contaminating it.

[Sindele]

The funniest part of this to me is that I guarantee most of his beloved translated works are full of wordplay that got completely crushed in the conversion process. It's not even a 'maybe', this happens with constant regularity because it's such a massively rich tradition that simply does not have easy analogues, and each one you want to protect is a whole ordeal on its own. (So many completely awkward out-of-tone jokes in translated games are trying to cover for puns. So many.)

[Telkira]

Sexual harassment isn't funny, and it was never really was funny to anyone else to begin with except for ardent anime fans who place Japanese culture on a pedestal, and no translation is ever lacking for its omission. It's an unfortunate fact of reality and making light of it only benefits its perpetrators by purporting disturbing and unwanted behaviour as harmless.

Sexual harassment is defined as actual acts or advances of a sexual nature that are unwarranted by the opposing party. The type of characterization that was Haurchefant, his archetype, and other characters which embody this trope are literally designed to make light of sexuality and perversion.
They are harmless jokes, and they're not intended to be nor do they function as de facto permission slips for bad actors to engage in real-life acts of sexual harassment, nor is there any evidence to support the claim that they contribute to a culture of tolerance for these things.

Knowing the difference between a joke in fiction vs. actual acts is key to media literacy. If your argument that less humor of this type and more censorship/suppression of it is a good thing, then you're basically asking for a society that never tests itself with respect to how fiction is allowed to operate.

It's thankfully become an awkward and outdated mode of comedy that is now on the outs in the West, and hopefully in time it will on the JP side too. I suggest accepting that and moving on.

Lmao it's not, not in the West and certainly not in Japan. I can point to dozens of still-running Netflix shows which feature character jokes and archetypes like that of Haurchefant, and no shortage of those which appear in anime.

It's this same type of philosophy that writers and critics like Andrea Dworkin and Anita Sarkeesian have been found to be wrong in much of their critiques about sex in media and how they affect culture, only for them to be found to be wrong, in that sexism, sexual harassment, etc have not changed with the way different S&P practices have changed in order to accommodate their criticisms.

[Telkira]

It's not "movements policing content in video games", it's a general shift in cultural and societal values brought on by these movements that will of course have lasting effects on popular media.

SE LITERALLY admitted that the way they went about making the changes was wrong, in addition to the fact that the changes themselves deprived the fanbase of a compelling and entertaining character. It wasn't a matter of pandering, it was a matter of "oh, hey, we screwed up and people are mad. Not just a vocal minority, but a lot of people from all across the world are mad."

And are you sure that these movements had the effect that you claim that they have? It seems more or less like a vocal minority of people from Twitter, Tumblr, and ResetEra with a bunch of paid journos who work with big publishers and developers to market things. People just don't like being shown things that offend them and try to link it to real-world issues because they have no real arguments.
They allow their dislike or discomfort with a certain subject or concept overwhelm their ability to distinguish between that concept and matters are concept-adjacent, and assume that any tolerance or acceptance of something that is adjacent would be misinterpreted as welcoming acceptance of it outside that context, which is always something that they're wrong about.
This is why you keep referring to Haurchefant's written actions as 'sexual harassment' despite the fact that it's a comedy bit in a foreign video game and not a serious depiction of harassment. If the writers wanted to convey him as a sincere sexual deviant who relishes in the discomfort he causes, then they would have done so by having the other characters treat it as such, not hand-wave it like the audiences is expected to.

It's not like game developers and content producers aren't aware of how frail they are, that's why they keep making 'problematic' content which deliberately upsets them so they can cash in on controversy.

Again, the phrase of the discussion is 'media literacy'. You deliberately cast that aside in favor of moral grandstanding.

Consumers want a game that is well-written, entertaining and aligns with their values, gaming companies want to sell games and make money. Everyone wins.

You can still have content like the canon Haurchefant and still have it align with values of sexual harassment being bad. It's a video game, not real life. It's not pro-unwanted sexual advances, especially when it's done so in the name of comedy. Haurchefant's iteration was well-written. He was a good comic-relief character, a welcome thing to have following the drab and dreary broader atmosphere of the setting he was presented in. He lightened the mood. In the EN text he comes off as vague and uncomfortably 'personal', and gives me the feeling that he has ulterior motives. The whole thing felt weird and uncomfortable, and it obviously wasn't how he was initially written.

[Aword3213]

You can still have content like the canon Haurchefant and still have it align with values of sexual harassment being bad. It's a video game, not real life. It's not pro-unwanted sexual advances, especially when it's done so in the name of comedy. Haurchefant's iteration was well-written. He was a good comic-relief character, a welcome thing to have following the drab and dreary broader atmosphere of the setting he was presented in. He lightened the mood. In the EN text he comes off as vague and uncomfortably 'personal', and gives me the feeling that he has ulterior motives. The whole thing felt weird and uncomfortable, and it obviously wasn't how he was initially written.

Nah, I like EN Haurchefant better.

[Bellsong]

Nah, I like EN Haurchefant better.

Localization saved us fr.

[Lunaxia]

The type of characterization that was Haurchefant, his archetype, and other characters which embody this trope are literally designed to make light of sexuality and perversion.

Yes, making a joke of creepy behaviour absolutely makes light of perversion, and subsequently downplays the seriousness of the issues it can cause. I'm glad you agree.

They are harmless jokes, and they're not intended to be permission slips

Okay, but to those so inclined, that's exactly how they come across. Funny, "loveable" protagonist makes inappropriate comments or awkward advances and gets merely laughed off while continuing to be seen in a positive light, so it's seen as harmless and increasingly acceptable to emulate. Times that by 1000 across various media, and an unfortunate message starts to sink in whether that was the intention of the developers or not.

Knowing the difference between a joke in fiction vs. actual acts is key to media literacy.

Separating what you're shown to what is actually being said and the impact it has is key to media literacy, actually. Would you argue omitting homophobic or racist jokes to be a form of "censorship" or "suppression", even though they're supposedly only intended as a form of "humour" not to be taken seriously?

Lmao it's not, not in the West and certainly not in Japan. I can point to dozens of still-running Netflix shows which feature character jokes and archetypes like that of Haurchefant, and no shortage of those which appear in anime.

Such as?

And I said in time. Japan has a long way to go as of yet, unfortunately.

It's this same type of philosophy...

Uh, you're more than a little deluded if you think the tone, diversity and degree of inclusivity in not only video games but other media content has not changed considerably in recent years in response to the likes of MeToo, Gamergate, the increasing visibility of Trans rights, myriad racist controversies, and so on. I don't know what else it is you were actually expecting in the current cultural climate or what your source is for these bizarre presumptions.

SE LITERALLY admitted that the way they went about...

I was actually there for that time in the game's history, and it was a brief flash in the pan wherein a group of players felt "cheated" because they learned the cutscenes possessed notable distinctions not only in the dialogue, but in how they played out. After this became common knowledge, most wound up agreeing that the changes were actually for the better, and notably the character did not go on to have any major revisions in how he was presented in the ENG version, nor did they add in his proclivity for creepy behaviour. In spite of this (!) he became, and remains, one of the most loved characters of the game to this day, something I daresay wouldn't have happened otherwise.

If the writers wanted to convey him as a sincere sexual deviant who relishes in the discomfort he causes, then they would have done so by having the other characters treat it as such, not hand-wave it like the audiences is expected to.

For someone who waffles on about media literacy, you sure seem ignorant of basic concepts like intent not equalling impact and the effect unconscious internal programming actually has when it comes to creating media. That they did not intend him to be a creep doesn't mean that he isn't, lol.

You can still have content like the canon Haurchefant and still have it align with values of sexual harassment being bad.

No.

It's a video game, not real life.

Also no.

Haurchefant's iteration was well-written. He was a good comic-relief character

Three for three, and by now not entirely unsure I've become entangled with another alt. Alas.

In the EN text he comes off as vague and uncomfortably 'personal', and gives me the feeling that he has ulterior motives. The whole thing felt weird and uncomfortable, and it obviously wasn't how he was initially written.

And inviting you to his chambers and frequently lusting after your sweaty body and toned physique aren't personal? You're kidding, right?

[OgruMogru]

Carry on up the [Jeweled] Crozier

[Telkira]

Yes, making a joke of creepy behaviour absolutely makes light of perversion, and subsequently downplays the seriousness of the issues it can cause. I'm glad you agree.

Making jokes does not downplay, nor affect the seriousness one would take the matter of sexual harassment within a serious context. This is the same logic that people use when trying to argue in favor of censorship/suppression of content or jokes they find offensive.

Okay, but to those so inclined, that's exactly how they come across. Funny, "loveable" protagonist makes inappropriate comments or awkward advances and gets merely laughed off while continuing to be seen in a positive light, so it's seen as harmless and increasingly acceptable to emulate. Times that by 1000 across various media, and an unfortunate message starts to sink in whether that was the intention of the developers or not.

Again, no. This is not how any of that works.

People may try to emulate qualities or characteristics that are admirable, but that's because those are traits that they already feel so strongly about whose value stands on their own merits. They're not going to try and emulate a debauchee like Haurchefant because anyone with the most remote sense would be able to identify that they would be inappropriate in real-life. If someone were to behave this way, it wouldn't be because the media they consume influenced them to do so.

There is literally zero evidence, scientific or otherwise, to make the claim that people who have acted inappropriately wouldn't have done so had they not been exposed to adjacent or similar material, especially when done so in the context of comedy in anime/manga or fiction. Even in Japan, where issues with harassment and assault on public transit, sexism in the workplace, etc. cannot be attributed to their lax standards with anime/manga, especially since their harassment rates aren't that much higher than in the West when measuring reported/unreported statistics.

This is also why the same rhetoric that critics like Anita Sarkeesian and Andrea Dworkin tried to push was soundly rejected (before it turned from criticism. It draws upon intuitively sound presumptions with no evidence to back them up. Like I said, companies are aware of this and leverage it into their products, hence why they have not and will not stop creating and marketing 'problematic' content like what we had here. Pearl clutching over depictions in fiction and other media does not help women who are victims of harassment.

The sooner people like you see that, the better.

Such as?

And I said in time. Japan has a long way to go as of yet, unfortunately.

Literally look for yourself. There's an ecchi anime about highschoolers that was announced, and after looking at both its 'adult' and 'TV' variants, it's going to be riddled with the so-called 'filth' that such content is known to have.

Also, Japan is under no obligation to conform to the arbitrary and unjustified standards of what you, or others like you, and fortunately they're showing absolutely zero signs of changing, hence why the LOC team did what they did to censor Haurchefant and why they admitted fault when doing so.

Uh, you're more than a little deluded if you think the tone, diversity and degree of inclusivity in not only video games but other media content has not changed considerably in recent years in response to the likes of MeToo, Gamergate, the increasing visibility of Trans rights, myriad racist controversies, and so on. I don't know what else it is you were actually expecting in the current cultural climate or what your source is for these bizarre presumptions.

It has increased, but none of it actually had the effect of making things better or influencing the culture as a whole. It was also, generally, one of those things were ever a problem when it came to media, and trying to pander to those causes or pundits has done nothing to actually influence or cause any real change. MeToo has had literally nothing to do with sexuality in video games, it was about sexual harassment and abuse going unaddressed and Gamergate was something else entirely. I agree with including trans characters in video games, but that has nothing to do with politics. It has to do with the fact that writers and creators are and should be free to create content however they want, which is why I also openly supported the inclusion and depiction of gay relationships and characters in material aimed general audiences.
That type of content doesn't try to break barriers, though, it does so by virtue of existing. Quality always speaks for itself.

I was actually there for that time in the game's history, and it was a brief flash in the pan wherein a group of players felt "cheated" because they learned the cutscenes possessed notable distinctions not only in the dialogue, but in how they played out. After this became common knowledge, most wound up agreeing that the changes were actually for the better

I've done my research on this, and it wasn't some 'flash in the pan' moment like you keep trying to claim. It was actually a very vocal uproar, because a lot of people weren't happy finding out that the whole "preserving the intention of the writers" assurance was backpedaled on, because people don't like having things being censored. If it truly were some brief 'flash in the pan' moment, then SE wouldn't have acknowledged it and admitted fault, and committed to reverting his characterization to be in-line with his canonical iteration going forward.

And no, most people don't agree that it was better. The consensus has always been mixed, but a handful of vocal supporters of the censored version on Reddit are not the majority. The backlash received from censoring him transcended multiple communities, and to this day still riles people up who would prefer to experience him the way he was initially intended to be.

In spite of this (!) he became, and remains, one of the most loved characters of the game to this day, something I daresay wouldn't have happened otherwise.

A vocal base of redditors and forum users doesn't count as making him one of the 'most loved' characters. It's far more likely he's more liked by the Japanese audience, in his proper iteration, than by Westerners, because he still retains all of the redeeming qualities of the EN one while also being a funny character with a broader purpose in the narrative as comic relief. Slapstick and abrupt disruptions in tone are some of my most favorite ways to break up the tension when necessary, so having him there felt so right.

No.

Yes, because it's fiction and intended to be comedic, because jokes are not intended to be taken seriously.

Also no.

But yes. It IS a video game, not real life.

And inviting you to his chambers and frequently lusting after your sweaty body and toned physique aren't personal? You're kidding, right?

Because it's obviously meant to be taken as a joke in the broader narrative, and his upfrontedness about his preferences only made me feel better about the character because it was clear what he was all about. He was also such a welcome and boisterous energy, given the cold and dreary setting and the emotions of the other characters.
In his EN iteration, he's written to feel more and more like a 'big brother' character, which is very bothersome given that the WoL's relationship to him at that point wasn't really that fleshed out. I kept thinking "why does he care this much? is there something I missed or a quest I should have paid more attention to?"
It also just felt like it was wrong, like something was missing. All my previous interactions with him had a different energy, and after a little bit of research, I finally found out why, and I wasn't happy. I was angry. I shouldn't have had to watch a Youtube video or read a transcript of the written dialog to experience this, it should have been that way when I played thru the MSQ my first go-around since I was playing with JAPANESE audio!